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Post by Bentley on Jul 8, 2024 19:10:46 GMT
“ the route that works “ is no route at all. It’s a specific point in series of random events . Unless you think there is system involved . Of course there is a system involved and it is survival and procreation. Those that survive and procreate continue their line. Of course there is much randomness within that system and luck plays a part but time and numbers is the essence of how it works and it works because one line is best suited to a potentially ever changing environment through being adapted to it or able to adapt to it. The one step at a time process continues on with small changes in units surviving better on average. Evolution designs by getting rid of failed designs and keeping successful ones. There are no evolution designs . Evolution is a series of random events where patterns occur . Evolution isn’t a kind of natural karma. The best ‘ designs’ that are the best adapted for one environment can be snuffed out in moment when exposed to a different environment. Designs need a designer . Even the most complex life systems could be a result of random events that set a pattern .So ‘ designs are not essential. Evolution is a the result of reaction not a complex system itself. Ask the Dinosaurs and the Dodo.
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Post by sandypine on Jul 8, 2024 19:42:25 GMT
Of course there is a system involved and it is survival and procreation. Those that survive and procreate continue their line. Of course there is much randomness within that system and luck plays a part but time and numbers is the essence of how it works and it works because one line is best suited to a potentially ever changing environment through being adapted to it or able to adapt to it. The one step at a time process continues on with small changes in units surviving better on average. Evolution designs by getting rid of failed designs and keeping successful ones. There are no evolution designs . Evolution is a series of random events where patterns occur . Evolution isn’t a kind of natural karma. The best ‘ designs’ that are the best adapted for one environment can be snuffed out in moment when exposed to a different environment. Designs need a designer . Even the most complex life systems could be a result of random events that set a pattern .So ‘ designs are not essential. Evolution is a the result of reaction not a complex system itself. Ask the Dinosaurs and the Dodo. I agree but there is a designer it is the evolutionary process that designs effectively by default. My understanding is design is not reaction it is just plain action, unthought, unplanned and subject to the vagaries of everything that acts upon it. Take two trees one has grown buttresses from its genetic inheritance the other has no buttresses because all its antecedents had no buttresses. When exceptional winds blow the buttressed tree will stay standing to procreate more and the other will blow over and rot on the woodland floor to procreate no more. This type of thing happened millions of times and evolution will select the design that fits best as the others will not have survived and that design, by small changes will be honed to perfection, not by consideration but by the mere act of being the best survivor.
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Post by Bentley on Jul 8, 2024 20:15:13 GMT
There are no evolution designs . Evolution is a series of random events where patterns occur . Evolution isn’t a kind of natural karma. The best ‘ designs’ that are the best adapted for one environment can be snuffed out in moment when exposed to a different environment. Designs need a designer . Even the most complex life systems could be a result of random events that set a pattern .So ‘ designs are not essential. Evolution is a the result of reaction not a complex system itself. Ask the Dinosaurs and the Dodo. I agree but there is a designer it is the evolutionary process that designs effectively by default. My understanding is design is not reaction it is just plain action, unthought, unplanned and subject to the vagaries of everything that acts upon it. Take two trees one has grown buttresses from its genetic inheritance the other has no buttresses because all its antecedents had no buttresses. When exceptional winds blow the buttressed tree will stay standing to procreate more and the other will blow over and rot on the woodland floor to procreate no more. This type of thing happened millions of times and evolution will select the design that fits best as the others will not have survived and that design, by small changes will be honed to perfection, not by consideration but by the mere act of being the best survivor. That’s not a design . It’s a number of random events that make a pattern . If you take billions of marbles in a big box and shake it for millions of years then trillions of random events would occur . Many of them making complex patterns . None of those complex patterns would be designs or systems .
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Post by sandypine on Jul 8, 2024 21:24:18 GMT
I agree but there is a designer it is the evolutionary process that designs effectively by default. My understanding is design is not reaction it is just plain action, unthought, unplanned and subject to the vagaries of everything that acts upon it. Take two trees one has grown buttresses from its genetic inheritance the other has no buttresses because all its antecedents had no buttresses. When exceptional winds blow the buttressed tree will stay standing to procreate more and the other will blow over and rot on the woodland floor to procreate no more. This type of thing happened millions of times and evolution will select the design that fits best as the others will not have survived and that design, by small changes will be honed to perfection, not by consideration but by the mere act of being the best survivor. That’s not a design . It’s a number of random events that make a pattern . If you take billions of marbles in a big box and shake it for millions of years then trillions of random events would occur . Many of them making complex patterns . None of those complex patterns would be designs or systems . I think we are arguing the same thing. These random events result in a design suited for the purpose for which the random events created it. It is difficult to use language that does not imply some creative desire but there is no desire, no direction, no plan but the result is a design. Evolution is a system, it works, it creates things by its existence and things exist because of the evolutionary process. We can shoogle the marbles as often as we like but if we end up with a pattern that both repeats and duplicates then we have to consider some form of evolutionary process within that box of billions of marbles. Fortunately the primordial chemical soup was not a box of marbles.
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Post by Bentley on Jul 8, 2024 21:36:25 GMT
That’s not a design . It’s a number of random events that make a pattern . If you take billions of marbles in a big box and shake it for millions of years then trillions of random events would occur . Many of them making complex patterns . None of those complex patterns would be designs or systems . I think we are arguing the same thing. These random events result in a design suited for the purpose for which the random events created it. It is difficult to use language that does not imply some creative desire but there is no desire, no direction, no plan but the result is a design. Evolution is a system, it works, it creates things by its existence and things exist because of the evolutionary process. We can shoogle the marbles as often as we like but if we end up with a pattern that both repeats and duplicates then we have to consider some form of evolutionary process within that box of billions of marbles. Fortunately the primordial chemical soup was not a box of marbles. I think random events caused the creation of self replicating patterns that are subjected to random events . These random effects cause some self replicating patterns to die or thrive which produce new patterns . We see those pattens as systems of designs because that’s the only way that we can see them. There are no systems processes or designs . Just random events forming patterns that become patterns repeating themselves that are subject to random events . Bit wordy that .
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Post by sandypine on Jul 8, 2024 21:42:17 GMT
I think we are arguing the same thing. These random events result in a design suited for the purpose for which the random events created it. It is difficult to use language that does not imply some creative desire but there is no desire, no direction, no plan but the result is a design. Evolution is a system, it works, it creates things by its existence and things exist because of the evolutionary process. We can shoogle the marbles as often as we like but if we end up with a pattern that both repeats and duplicates then we have to consider some form of evolutionary process within that box of billions of marbles. Fortunately the primordial chemical soup was not a box of marbles. I think random events caused the creation of self replicating patterns that are subjected to random events . These random effects cause some self replicating patterns to die or thrive which produce new patterns . We see those pattens as systems of designs because that’s the only way that we can see them. There are no systems processes or designs . Just random events forming patterns that become patterns repeating themselves that are subject to random events . Bit wordy that . Well can I just ask is the human body a design for which there is a pattern available which is followed in sequence in order to construct it?
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Post by Bentley on Jul 8, 2024 21:54:47 GMT
I think random events caused the creation of self replicating patterns that are subjected to random events . These random effects cause some self replicating patterns to die or thrive which produce new patterns . We see those pattens as systems of designs because that’s the only way that we can see them. There are no systems processes or designs . Just random events forming patterns that become patterns repeating themselves that are subject to random events . Bit wordy that . Well can I just ask is the human body a design for which there is a pattern available which is followed in sequence in order to construct it? It’s not a design. It just is . A design needs a designer. A pattern that defies the probability of its existence. A consequence of infinite possibilities in an infinite universe ( I use the term infinite loosely).
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 9, 2024 7:18:14 GMT
Thats interesting Steppenwolf, are you saying that mixing up the gene pool, persons of different ethnic backgrounds reproducing, is a bad thing.? My understanding is that the opposite is true, that interbreeding produces maladaption, serius mental and physical illness. Like in the Asian community when cousin marries cousin. Discussion of this kind is not forbidden, that any knowledge must be welcome. In my career i have had experience of Huntingdoms Chorea, a truly horrific genetic illness, and in its treatment reproduction of affected individuals is not forbidden but seriously disapproved of. It's complicated and I'm not an expert, but the basics are simple. For each gene type you get one gene from the father and one from the mother. Some genes are dominant (A) and some recessive (a). The dominant gene is the one expressed. So each person may have the following genes AA, Aa, aA and aa. So 75% of offspring will have the dominant gene A expressed and only 25% will have the recessive gene. Over time in a large population the recessive gene will effectively disappear but in a small population the recessive gene is more likely to survive. So if you take a simple example like blue and brown eyes. Brown is the dominant gene and blue the recessive. So brown will tend to eliminate blue in large populations - for blue to survive the population has to be made up of large numbers of aa people. So the Scandinavians have mostly blue eyes and blond hair but the more "dark phase" people who immigrate to the country the rarer they will become - and ultimately they will disappear. That's how true "diversity" can be lost and it's probably why animals are programmed to breed with only their own kind. In the case of hair colour or eye colour it may be inconsequential, but we may be losing characteristics that we later find are important. But, as you say inbreeding (i.e. with a small selection of parents) can allow recessive genes to survive - and some will be disadvantageous like Huntingdon's. Widening the breeding pool will be advantageous in this case. On the other hand you are going to lose recessive genes that may be advantageous. Remember that evolution (including advantageous evolution) often occurs most rapidly in very small populations. This is how evolution gets speeded up. Provided that the disadvantageous gene combinations are eliminated this can be beneficial. Unfortunately that's what humans are eliminating. We don't eliminate the "bad blood" and we don't allow "inbreeding". That's why we're killing evolution. In fact we're putting it into reverse.
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Post by see2 on Jul 9, 2024 7:35:34 GMT
Are humans, us an evolutionary dead end? That as discussed on here the glaring faults of governance, not only in Britain, but around the world, that the application of common sense, fairness, democracy, makes no difference. That those in charge purposely push us to obliteration, and the vast, vast majority approve. The answer has to be yes, indeed nature in its way, is clearing the path for the ending of human life by making socialism permanent. In the depths of chaos, despair, hopelessness, can we as a species pull the coals out of the fire.? That Starmer and his cohort from hell are the harbingers of doom, Satan is coming.....for you....but proffessing good deeds. What will come after? What will come during is more important, people with fixed opinions based upon non-thinking feelings, are the main threat to progress.
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Post by piglet on Jul 9, 2024 8:14:48 GMT
I put it to you that the design of humans is fatally flawed, that we will go the way of the Dodo. The complexity of the human mind and its possibilities require thinking and leadership.
Here is an example. That in bygone centuries, people had open cess pits where people crapped etc, it was not separate, diseseases death was rampant, the disease got intoi the water supply. Today we are doing THE SAME.
Its not poo this time but industrial effluent.
Secondly, in the process of picking persons to think and make decisions, we pick the people who art the LEAST fit. Its a well known fact that politicians have the lowest mental health of all. When youve looked at the list of our prime ministers you can only hold your head in your hands.
The design of what we think we need as governance is wrong, that the problem is solved by competition. By using competition you guarantee that the least fit will win, its not about whats best, but how to win. As Starmer has said, he will put country before party.
A WHOPPER.
Lies are embedded in politics, that every thing any politician says is wrong because of the above. Now, someone tell me this is the way to go. The race to get elected is like the jungle, that those with the most money, biggest teeth win.
This is the inverted nonsense that will kill us all, and is evidence that although we possess intelligence it is not enough, more is needed. But how? What is needed? A psychopath just blew up a hospital for kids. How do you talk to someone like that?
You cant, we are an evolutionary dead end. And heres proof, Russians think Putin is a good geezer.
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Post by bancroft on Jul 9, 2024 10:30:32 GMT
Yes all industry creates waste and in smaller countries it is more difficult to hide, unlike say Russia.
Politicians are not normally in power for that long some only 5 years so there is little to long term fixing.
Letting in large numbers of immigrants started after WWII due to many Brits coming back from the war and seeing bombed-out cities and feeling the effects of rations.
They moved to the colonies and so immigrants were let in here, the first were the Irish and many others came later as a short term political fix to rebuild Britain on the cheap. Short term fixing got us inot this mix and unlikely to change quickly.
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Post by sandypine on Jul 9, 2024 12:15:50 GMT
Well can I just ask is the human body a design for which there is a pattern available which is followed in sequence in order to construct it? It’s not a design. It just is . A design needs a designer. A pattern that defies the probability of its existence. A consequence of infinite possibilities in an infinite universe ( I use the term infinite loosely). Evolution has come up with a design and has laid down a pattern and repeats that design. We are no longer random, we exist in a design that has further random events acting on it for better and for worse.
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 9, 2024 13:32:31 GMT
I put it to you that the design of humans is fatally flawed, that we will go the way of the Dodo. The complexity of the human mind and its possibilities require thinking and leadership. Here is an example. That in bygone centuries, people had open cess pits where people crapped etc, it was not separate, diseseases death was rampant, the disease got intoi the water supply. Today we are doing THE SAME. Its not poo this time but industrial effluent. Secondly, in the process of picking persons to think and make decisions, we pick the people who art the LEAST fit. Its a well known fact that politicians have the lowest mental health of all. When youve looked at the list of our prime ministers you can only hold your head in your hands. The design of what we think we need as governance is wrong, that the problem is solved by competition. By using competition you guarantee that the least fit will win, its not about whats best, but how to win. As Starmer has said, he will put country before party. A WHOPPER. Lies are embedded in politics, that every thing any politician says is wrong because of the above. Now, someone tell me this is the way to go. The race to get elected is like the jungle, that those with the most money, biggest teeth win. This is the inverted nonsense that will kill us all, and is evidence that although we possess intelligence it is not enough, more is needed. But how? What is needed? A psychopath just blew up a hospital for kids. How do you talk to someone like that? You cant, we are an evolutionary dead end. And heres proof, Russians think Putin is a good geezer. You're not talking about evolution. You're talking about our system of governance. Our politicians are useless. We now have foreign secretary (Lammy) who thinks that trans-women can grow a cervix by hormone therapy and when asked to to give the surname of the person named Marie who discovered radium said Marie Antionette. He's an imbecile. Yet he was educated at Harvard. But it's the system that is at fault. We have an adversarial system in which the government get attacked by a group of politicians (who are paid for out of the public purse - Short money) whose only function is to rubbish what the govt does. And a civil service who think they canpick and choose what they do. So the new govt are now going to try and unpick everything that was done before. Nobody would ever think of running a business this way.
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Post by Bentley on Jul 9, 2024 13:53:59 GMT
It’s not a design. It just is . A design needs a designer. A pattern that defies the probability of its existence. A consequence of infinite possibilities in an infinite universe ( I use the term infinite loosely). Evolution has come up with a design and has laid down a pattern and repeats that design. We are no longer random, we exist in a design that has further random events acting on it for better and for worse. So ‘ evolution’ is God then? A design needs a designer.
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Post by sandypine on Jul 9, 2024 14:20:15 GMT
Evolution has come up with a design and has laid down a pattern and repeats that design. We are no longer random, we exist in a design that has further random events acting on it for better and for worse. So ‘ evolution’ is God then? A design needs a designer. It has a designer but the designer is inanimate. If you wish we could call the evolutionary process 'God' but that has so many connotations and baggage around it I would prefer not to.
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