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Post by Bentley on Jul 9, 2024 14:32:20 GMT
So ‘ evolution’ is God then? A design needs a designer. It has a designer but the designer is inanimate. If you wish we could call the evolutionary process 'God' but that has so many connotations and baggage around it I would prefer not to. A design comes with all the connotations and baggage of ‘ God’ around it as soon as you define it as a design . An inanimate designer is just another God …just a blind one . You either have a god that creates the designs )…with a bit of mental gymnastics you can incorporate the god within a system …that needed another designer to create a system.) Or you can say evolution is merely a number of random events that look like patterns if you want see patterns. Humans like patterns. |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 9, 2024 14:55:26 GMT
It has a designer but the designer is inanimate. If you wish we could call the evolutionary process 'God' but that has so many connotations and baggage around it I would prefer not to. A design comes with all the connotations and baggage of ‘ God’ around it as soon as you define it as a design . An inanimate designer is just another God …just a blind one . You either have a god that creates the designs )…with a bit of mental gymnastics you can incorporate the god within a system …that needed another designer to create a system.) Or you can say evolution is merely a number of random events that look like patterns if you want see patterns. Humans like patterns. This is where we diverge, evolution through random events has created something that is no longer random. It is specific and repeated and with man often consciously repeated. I believe Dawkins called evolution the Blind Watchmaker. |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 9, 2024 15:01:25 GMT
A design comes with all the connotations and baggage of ‘ God’ around it as soon as you define it as a design . An inanimate designer is just another God …just a blind one . You either have a god that creates the designs )…with a bit of mental gymnastics you can incorporate the god within a system …that needed another designer to create a system.) Or you can say evolution is merely a number of random events that look like patterns if you want see patterns. Humans like patterns. This is where we diverge, evolution through random events has created something that is no longer random. It is specific and repeated and with man often consciously repeated. I believe Dawkins called evolution the Blind Watchmaker. No it’s still random but if you look at it for long enough patterns emerge . An infinite number of monkeys randomly typing on an infinite number of writers would produce any given text, including the complete works of William Shakespeare. Blind watchmaker is just a way of saying god without saying god . |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 9, 2024 15:25:52 GMT
This is where we diverge, evolution through random events has created something that is no longer random. It is specific and repeated and with man often consciously repeated. I believe Dawkins called evolution the Blind Watchmaker. No it’s still random but if you look at it for long enough patterns emerge . An infinite number of monkeys randomly typing on an infinite number of writers would produce any given text, including the complete works of William Shakespeare. Blind watchmaker is just a way of saying god without saying god . No God designs, the Blind watchmaker arrives at a design through random events and the important part is that that design can be repeated and is no longer random. The infinite number of monkeys may work in infinity but we do not have infinity we just have a very large number and as the design(s) was (were) honed to perfection through natural selection it is no longer random, if it ever was, as chemical reactions have Chemoselectivity. |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 9, 2024 15:48:05 GMT
No it’s still random but if you look at it for long enough patterns emerge . An infinite number of monkeys randomly typing on an infinite number of writers would produce any given text, including the complete works of William Shakespeare. Blind watchmaker is just a way of saying god without saying god . No God designs, the Blind watchmaker arrives at a design through random events and the important part is that that design can be repeated and is no longer random. The infinite number of monkeys may work in infinity but we do not have infinity we just have a very large number and as the design(s) was (were) honed to perfection through natural selection it is no longer random, if it ever was, as chemical reactions have Chemoselectivity. That’s just exchanging one god to another . One god designs and creates the other god designs itself . We do have infinite. An endless amount ..an unlimited amount . There are more than one concepts of infinity .Just change the word infinite to unlimited . Anything honed to perfection has either been honed by an outside influence or has influence within . Another God. Natural selection is just a series of random events . The ‘ design’ is the pattern that you need to observe to make sense of it. |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 9, 2024 18:35:36 GMT
No God designs, the Blind watchmaker arrives at a design through random events and the important part is that that design can be repeated and is no longer random. The infinite number of monkeys may work in infinity but we do not have infinity we just have a very large number and as the design(s) was (were) honed to perfection through natural selection it is no longer random, if it ever was, as chemical reactions have Chemoselectivity. That’s just exchanging one god to another . One god designs and creates the other god designs itself . We do have infinite. An endless amount ..an unlimited amount . There are more than one concepts of infinity .Just change the word infinite to unlimited . Anything honed to perfection has either been honed by an outside influence or has influence within . Another God. Natural selection is just a series of random events . The ‘ design’ is the pattern that you need to observe to make sense of it. It is finite the Universe has a beginning and an end, it might be very big but it is not infinite. The idea of the infinite number of monkeys is that every combination of letters will eventually be arrived at as the opportunities to do that will be met by the infinite number of monkeys. That is not the case with evolution, the chances are limited, but big. I am afraid you are stuck in language as evolution/natural selection is a force that does the honing through what is basically trial and error. Success carries on, failure dies out. Success does not have to be beautiful, or good it just has to be. Let us take your big box of marbles and say some are black and some are white and that the black ones absorb a bit of light and heat and gradually rise and the white gradually sink. Eventually they will be sorted black at the top white at the bottom. It was only natural forces that worked on the marbles but a pattern emerged unbidden by any designer but being a distinct design through a natural process |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 9, 2024 19:41:04 GMT
That’s just exchanging one god to another . One god designs and creates the other god designs itself . We do have infinite. An endless amount ..an unlimited amount . There are more than one concepts of infinity .Just change the word infinite to unlimited . Anything honed to perfection has either been honed by an outside influence or has influence within . Another God. Natural selection is just a series of random events . The ‘ design’ is the pattern that you need to observe to make sense of it. It is finite the Universe has a beginning and an end, it might be very big but it is not infinite. The idea of the infinite number of monkeys is that every combination of letters will eventually be arrived at as the opportunities to do that will be met by the infinite number of monkeys. That is not the case with evolution, the chances are limited, but big. I am afraid you are stuck in language as evolution/natural selection is a force that does the honing through what is basically trial and error. Success carries on, failure dies out. Success does not have to be beautiful, or good it just has to be. Let us take your big box of marbles and say some are black and some are white and that the black ones absorb a bit of light and heat and gradually rise and the white gradually sink. Eventually they will be sorted black at the top white at the bottom. It was only natural forces that worked on the marbles but a pattern emerged unbidden by any designer but being a distinct design through a natural process You dontknow if the universe is finite or not. You don’t know if there are an infinite number of universes or not . You have no comprehension of infinite and there are several concepts of infinite . You have no idea if there are an infinite number of ‘ chances ‘ in evolution or not. You can only draw on the construct of the universe that you can accept . So its you that is stuck in language by insisting that your interpretation of ‘ infinite ‘ is the only one thus bringing the debate down to what ‘ infinite ‘ means . Your limitations are highlighted by the box of marbles …you arbitrarily introduced gravity . You couldn’t think beyond it . If you have systems , natural forces ( lol) and refuse to move outside of an envelope that you are not comfortable with , then you are merely exchanging God with an invisible force . However if the ‘ forces , designs and systems) were merely the result of a conceived pattern (from an infinite number of random events ) that we have constructed in an effort to explain reality then we can dispense with Gods and Gods within systems that regulate the systems . An infinite number of random events from an infinite number of universe with produce an infinite number of patterns ..one of which we see at this point in this universe. It’s certainly no less crazy than self knowing systems that just ‘ are’ working within unlimited numbers of systems that just are . |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 9, 2024 21:39:09 GMT
It is finite the Universe has a beginning and an end, it might be very big but it is not infinite. The idea of the infinite number of monkeys is that every combination of letters will eventually be arrived at as the opportunities to do that will be met by the infinite number of monkeys. That is not the case with evolution, the chances are limited, but big. I am afraid you are stuck in language as evolution/natural selection is a force that does the honing through what is basically trial and error. Success carries on, failure dies out. Success does not have to be beautiful, or good it just has to be. Let us take your big box of marbles and say some are black and some are white and that the black ones absorb a bit of light and heat and gradually rise and the white gradually sink. Eventually they will be sorted black at the top white at the bottom. It was only natural forces that worked on the marbles but a pattern emerged unbidden by any designer but being a distinct design through a natural process You dontknow if the universe is finite or not. You don’t know if there are an infinite number of universes or not . You have no comprehension of infinite and there are several concepts of infinite . You have no idea if there are an infinite number of ‘ chances ‘ in evolution or not. You can only draw on the construct of the universe that you can accept . So its you that is stuck in language by insisting that your interpretation of ‘ infinite ‘ is the only one thus bringing the debate down to what ‘ infinite ‘ means . Your limitations are highlighted by the box of marbles …you arbitrarily introduced gravity . You couldn’t think beyond it . If you have systems , natural forces ( lol) and refuse to move outside of an envelope that you are not comfortable with , then you are merely exchanging God with an invisible force . However if the ‘ forces , designs and systems) were merely the result of a conceived pattern (from an infinite number of random events ) that we have constructed in an effort to explain reality then we can dispense with Gods and Gods within systems that regulate the systems . An infinite number of random events from an infinite number of universe with produce an infinite number of patterns ..one of which we see at this point in this universe. It’s certainly no less crazy than self knowing systems that just ‘ are’ working within unlimited numbers of systems that just are . I do not need to think beyond because we are dealing with what we observe and the environment within which that observation takes place and gravity is not an arbitrary introduction and neither is heat and light as they both exist within the context of the evolutionary process. We did not evolve and exist in the void we evolved and existed within an environment where natural forces were at work. We could introduce the concept that anything is possible as indeed the works of Shakespeare being produced by random typists is possible or that evolution took place only in an infinite number of parallel universes and it only exists here because we happen to be in that one. However we are in that one, we have no clear concept of any others and the clear observation is that patterns have evolved naturally from the physical forces present and those forces have produced a repeatable pattern that can replicate itself through, wait for it, natural selection. There are not many gaps in that viewpoint, there are many different viewpoints on the detail. |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 9, 2024 21:52:16 GMT
You dontknow if the universe is finite or not. You don’t know if there are an infinite number of universes or not . You have no comprehension of infinite and there are several concepts of infinite . You have no idea if there are an infinite number of ‘ chances ‘ in evolution or not. You can only draw on the construct of the universe that you can accept . So its you that is stuck in language by insisting that your interpretation of ‘ infinite ‘ is the only one thus bringing the debate down to what ‘ infinite ‘ means . Your limitations are highlighted by the box of marbles …you arbitrarily introduced gravity . You couldn’t think beyond it . If you have systems , natural forces ( lol) and refuse to move outside of an envelope that you are not comfortable with , then you are merely exchanging God with an invisible force . However if the ‘ forces , designs and systems) were merely the result of a conceived pattern (from an infinite number of random events ) that we have constructed in an effort to explain reality then we can dispense with Gods and Gods within systems that regulate the systems . An infinite number of random events from an infinite number of universe with produce an infinite number of patterns ..one of which we see at this point in this universe. It’s certainly no less crazy than self knowing systems that just ‘ are’ working within unlimited numbers of systems that just are . I do not need to think beyond because we are dealing with what we observe and the environment within which that observation takes place and gravity is not an arbitrary introduction and neither is heat and light as they both exist within the context of the evolutionary process. We did not evolve and exist in the void we evolved and existed within an environment where natural forces were at work. We could introduce the concept that anything is possible as indeed the works of Shakespeare being produced by random typists is possible or that evolution took place only in an infinite number of parallel universes and it only exists here because we happen to be in that one. However we are in that one, we have no clear concept of any others and the clear observation is that patterns have evolved naturally from the physical forces present and those forces have produced a repeatable pattern that can replicate itself through, wait for it, natural selection. There are not many gaps in that viewpoint, there are many different viewpoints on the detail. Indeed. Because we are ‘ in that one ‘ all we can see is that one . We see designs and processes through patterns which we construct . We see designs and processes without considering what lies beyond designs , processes and systems and that they all need to be constructed by something or construct themselves . It’s just an extension of gods or deities . An infinitely complex universe with infinite random events can explain reality just as well as arbitrary processs that just ‘ are ‘ . In fact they free us from the limited thinking of ‘ forces ‘or ‘designs ‘that we exchange for what we used to call gods or deities . |
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Post by Orac on Jul 10, 2024 5:43:57 GMT
This is where we diverge, evolution through random events has created something that is no longer random. It is specific and repeated and with man often consciously repeated. I believe Dawkins called evolution the Blind Watchmaker. No it’s still random but if you look at it for long enough patterns emerge . The mechanism is random, but the result has a pattern because only things with patterns 'work'. The patterns are real. It's like rolling ten dice, but keeping the dice that show sixes and re-rolling the rest. In the end all ten dice show sixes |
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Post by piglet on Jul 10, 2024 9:31:04 GMT
God indeed i havent factored in that, and im a believer. Evolution is the process that allows the expression of souls in a physical world, so in all ways, this chaos, this nonsense is needed for soul growth. All things are simple really. And by jiminy are they simple, but not learned, not part of a person.
The world is a kindergarten, with an adult roaming around somewhere. Bad things happen, like someone nicks my sweets, i get a punch on the arm. But whats next? A bigger school. Then what?
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Post by piglet on Jul 10, 2024 9:36:22 GMT
I didnt realise there was a third page. See the monster that needs taming?, intelligence, and when it goes wrong owt can happeen, and does. I was thinking out loud Bentley i think it was who answered the question, god help mee, the answer was staring me in the face. All is well.
Not down here though. (Earth.)
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Post by sandypine on Jul 10, 2024 10:44:03 GMT
I do not need to think beyond because we are dealing with what we observe and the environment within which that observation takes place and gravity is not an arbitrary introduction and neither is heat and light as they both exist within the context of the evolutionary process. We did not evolve and exist in the void we evolved and existed within an environment where natural forces were at work. We could introduce the concept that anything is possible as indeed the works of Shakespeare being produced by random typists is possible or that evolution took place only in an infinite number of parallel universes and it only exists here because we happen to be in that one. However we are in that one, we have no clear concept of any others and the clear observation is that patterns have evolved naturally from the physical forces present and those forces have produced a repeatable pattern that can replicate itself through, wait for it, natural selection. There are not many gaps in that viewpoint, there are many different viewpoints on the detail. Indeed. Because we are ‘ in that one ‘ all we can see is that one . We see designs and processes through patterns which we construct . We see designs and processes without considering what lies beyond designs , processes and systems and that they all need to be constructed by something or construct themselves . It’s just an extension of gods or deities . An infinitely complex universe with infinite random events can explain reality just as well as arbitrary processs that just ‘ are ‘ . In fact they free us from the limited thinking of ‘ forces ‘or ‘designs ‘that we exchange for what we used to call gods or deities . No one discounts 'beyond' but what we do is observe and pontificate as regards what we can deduce from that. You keep saying a design needs to be constructed by something and then agree it is possible they construct themselves which is exactly what natural selection does. The natural forces working on the natural world have created patterns that we regard as life and which can replicate itself to preserve mostly the pattern so created and in addition to help change it to better survive in the changing natural world. It is not some form of conscious process it is actions that occur naturally from natural forces and result, in the current end. |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 10, 2024 11:43:10 GMT
No it’s still random but if you look at it for long enough patterns emerge . The mechanism is random, but the result has a pattern because only things with patterns 'work'. The patterns are real. It's like rolling ten dice, but keeping the dice that show sixes and re-rolling the rest. In the end all ten dice show sixes Not necessarily. With enough random events anything will happen , including patterns that look like designs to humans who can only comprehend patterns. Reality could be infinite universes producing infinite random events . |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 10, 2024 11:49:37 GMT
Indeed. Because we are ‘ in that one ‘ all we can see is that one . We see designs and processes through patterns which we construct . We see designs and processes without considering what lies beyond designs , processes and systems and that they all need to be constructed by something or construct themselves . It’s just an extension of gods or deities . An infinitely complex universe with infinite random events can explain reality just as well as arbitrary processs that just ‘ are ‘ . In fact they free us from the limited thinking of ‘ forces ‘or ‘designs ‘that we exchange for what we used to call gods or deities . No one discounts 'beyond' but what we do is observe and pontificate as regards what we can deduce from that. You keep saying a design needs to be constructed by something and then agree it is possible they construct themselves which is exactly what natural selection does. The natural forces working on the natural world have created patterns that we regard as life and which can replicate itself to preserve mostly the pattern so created and in addition to help change it to better survive in the changing natural world. It is not some form of conscious process it is actions that occur naturally from natural forces and result, in the current end. The concept that self regulating designs, systems and natural forces sprang out of nothing is merely intellectual laziness / restriction. This is no better than saying ‘ Mother Nature ‘ does it all. |
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