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Post by wapentake on Jul 6, 2024 7:12:27 GMT
Yep, can't argue - that's the system (but there again, plenty argue vs the system we had for the referendum).
But systems can be changed and should be - especially when they become so demonstrably out of kilter as this one has.
We had a referendum to get rid of it, and people voted to keep it. Bit like the referendum to leave but it hasn’t stopped the abuse demands for a rerun and cancelling it since day one has it?  |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jul 6, 2024 7:46:07 GMT
Yep, can't argue - that's the system (but there again, plenty argue vs the system we had for the referendum).
But systems can be changed and should be - especially when they become so demonstrably out of kilter as this one has.
We had a referendum to get rid of it, and people voted to keep it. No, we had a referendum on AV which is not the same thing. |
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 6, 2024 7:48:22 GMT
Yep, can't argue - that's the system (but there again, plenty argue vs the system we had for the referendum).
But systems can be changed and should be - especially when they become so demonstrably out of kilter as this one has.
We had a referendum to get rid of it, and people voted to keep it. Only because the new option offered was NOT Proportional Representation. Had it been PR we'd have likely had a new system. AV was chosen PRECISELY because it was the worst possible bastardisation of FPTP and PR combined. All The Best |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jul 6, 2024 9:37:30 GMT
LOL, nothing quite so trivial. Mrs R was not best pleased with me for staying up all night to watch the results come in. |
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Post by bancroft on Jul 6, 2024 13:57:45 GMT
Better relations with the EU wouldn't be a bad thing in and of themselves. The problem will arise of it ever gets to the point where the EU can impose laws we have no say over; and I just don't see that happening. All The Best I agree better relations would be no bad thing but the EU always arrives with strings. Being a good neighbour is seen as an opportunity by the EU, not an altruistic action. They think you cannot be a good neighbour unless you meet their conditions.Unless you are Ukraine. |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 6, 2024 14:06:11 GMT
I agree better relations would be no bad thing but the EU always arrives with strings. Being a good neighbour is seen as an opportunity by the EU, not an altruistic action. They think you cannot be a good neighbour unless you meet their conditions.Unless you are Ukraine. Well we know that the EU have rules that can be jettisoned if it suits the EU programme but it has to suit the programme and the UK will never suit the programme unless we drop our trousers and bend over. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Jul 6, 2024 14:08:16 GMT
Well we know that the EU have rules that can be jettisoned if it suits the EU programme but it has to suit the programme and the UK will never suit the programme unless we drop our trousers and bend over.Just like Lammy will do ... |
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Post by vlk on Jul 6, 2024 15:29:39 GMT
I'm not really bothered about Labour getting 2/3 of the seats with 1/3 of the votes. That is how the system works for the big parties.
However, I find it outrageous that 12% gives you 71 seats while 14% gives you 4 seats.
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Post by wassock on Jul 6, 2024 20:50:26 GMT
"The gap between the share of total votes won by the winning party in the 2024 general election and the share of Parliamentary seats won is the largest on record, BBC Verify has found...
...The Electoral Reform Society claimed it was “the most disproportional in British electoral history”.
You're like a football fan who's team got tonked 5-0 saying really your team won because they had more possession and corners. Look where Labour were when Starmer took over, this is nothing less than a stunning victory for Labour and a generational disaster for the Tories. If you just look at the final result, you are correct. But if you look at the big picture and look at the stats, it's nowhere as rosey as anyone thinks. If you say the people wanted Labour, why did the Tories and Reform between them achieve over 1 million more votes than Labour? If Farage had joined the conservatives, the result would have been a close call. Voter turnout was the second lowest since 1918, this election saw 60% of the electorate. Public interest in politics has been steadily declining for decades. I propose the UK system to move over to proportional representation and binding referendums, like the Swiss. But, allow the next two elections to be conducted under the old system, then implement PR. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jul 6, 2024 21:11:44 GMT
...If you say the people wanted Labour, why did the Tories and Reform between them achieve over 1 million more votes than Labour?... Not to mention Labour getting fewer votes then they did under the disaster that was Jeremy Corbyn. Hardly indicative of increasing popularity. |
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 6, 2024 21:26:30 GMT
If you say the people wanted Labour, why did the Tories and Reform between them achieve over 1 million more votes than Labour? If Farage had joined the conservatives, the result would have been a close call. Well, if you add Labour and Lib-Dems together they got 13,223,854 votes, or 45.9% of the vote. The Tories + Reform got 10,944,532 votes, or 38% of the vote Heck add up everyone not Tory + Reform, throw in some the French votes that weren't cast for Front Nationale and see what that comes to - its just as meaningful. All this duplicitous, dishonest, mental gymnastics to try and make the outcome look different is just tiresome fuckwittery that no one with an actual functioning brain believes for even a second. We have a FPTP System You may not like it, I certainly don't like it. But it is what we have... ...end of. You might prefer PR, I certainly prefer PR. But we don't have PR. We can't just pretend that our electoral system works differently than it actually does to make it sound like the party that won didn't win. That is what children do; when they don't like reality they "play pretend". Grow the fuck up and accept Labour won... ...end of. How about we give Labour a chance before we start slagging them off; just like we gave Johnson, Truss and Sunak a chance - until they proved they were not fit for office. All The Best |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 6, 2024 21:30:33 GMT
If you say the people wanted Labour, why did the Tories and Reform between them achieve over 1 million more votes than Labour? If Farage had joined the conservatives, the result would have been a close call. Well, if you add Labour and Lib-Dems together they got 13,223,854 votes, or 45.9% of the vote. The Tories + Reform got 10,944,532 votes, or 38% of the vote Heck add up everyone not Tory + Reform, throw in some the French votes that weren't cast for Front Nationale and see what that comes to - its just as meaningful. All this duplicitous, dishonest, mental gymnastics to try and make the outcome look different is just tiresome fuckwittery that no one with an actual functioning brain believes for even a second. We have a FPTP System You may not like it, I certainly don't like it. But it is what we have... ...end of. You might prefer PR, I certainly prefer PR. But we don't have PR. We can't just pretend that our electoral system works differently than it actually does to make it sound like the party that won didn't win. That is what children do; when they don't like reality they "play pretend". Grow the fuck up and accept Labour won... ...end of. How about we give Labour a chance before we start slagging them off; just like we gave Johnson, Truss and Sunak a chance - until they proved they were not fit for office. All The Best One of the joys of political debate forums is to ruminate about every detail of elections in their aftermath. Grow the fuck up and accept it… |
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 6, 2024 21:31:50 GMT
...If you say the people wanted Labour, why did the Tories and Reform between them achieve over 1 million more votes than Labour?... Not to mention Labour getting fewer votes then they did under the disaster that was Jeremy Corbyn. Hardly indicative of increasing popularity. Have those figures been adjusted to account for population growth? No, they have not. Because as a percentage of votes cast Corbyn got 32.2% in 2019; whereas Starmer in 2024 got 33.7%. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but 33.7 is in fact greater than 32.2. Thereby indicating increasing popularity. Because like all non-compulsory popular-votes the ONLY thing that ic counted and makes a difference is Votes Cast. All The Best |
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 6, 2024 21:35:01 GMT
I'm not really bothered about Labour getting 2/3 of the seats with 1/3 of the votes. That is how the system works for the big parties. However, I find it outrageous that 12% gives you 71 seats while 14% gives you 4 seats. In a constituency based FPTP system - which is what we have - total % of votes is meaningless. Absolutely nothing at all is determined by it. How the votes are distributed is far, far, far more important. Sooner we have PR the better IMO. All The Best |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jul 6, 2024 21:52:25 GMT
Have those figures been adjusted to account for population growth? No, they have not... I agree. If they had been adjusted for population growth then Labour would be even less popular now than in the disaster (for them) of the previous GE. Because as a percentage of votes cast Corbyn got 32.2% in 2019; whereas Starmer in 2024 got 33.7%. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but 33.7 is in fact greater than 32.2. Thereby indicating increasing popularity. Because like all non-compulsory popular-votes the ONLY thing that ic counted and makes a difference is Votes Cast... Agreed. As a percentage of votes cast. And I agree that that is the only thing that counts when it comes to win or lose. No dispute. But as evidence of popularity, which was the original claim, the numbers point in the opposite direction: Fewer actual votes from a larger pool of voters is direct evidence of a decline in popularity. And that doesn't just apply to Labour - it applies to all of the "Big Three" (well, the Big Two and in reality the 4th party). |
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