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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 2, 2024 14:43:02 GMT
Exactly my point.No, they really weren't.All The Best You don’t have a point . The best that you have is that Spartan women were treated as badly as the rest of the Greek women( who themselves were treated as brood mares )but in a different way . I’ve posted 3 sources that confirm Ancient Greek women were treated as chattels for Greek men and you have posted nothing to refute it.So if you don’t mind I’ll believe the believable source Because I agree with it - as I have already stated, more than once. But they were treated as "high value" chattels, because of the esteem of breeding "legal citizens". You "own" some things right? You place more value on some of the things you own than on others. You invest more in some of the things you own that you do others. If you own a house I will bet my left bollock you value it more than the cooker in the kitchen; I am willing to bet you invest more in maintaining and protecting the house than you do the cooker. Therefore the principle that something can be owned but still held in high regard, and maintained properly is not even really a contentious point. So why are you making it one? I have said the way Greek women treated was sexist, I have said they were not afford all the rights of Citizenship (neither were Spartan women); I think we would both agree so far. Why is it so hard for you to grasp that despite those things Greek Women were held in high regard. All The Best
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Post by Bentley on Jul 2, 2024 14:52:44 GMT
You don’t have a point . The best that you have is that Spartan women were treated as badly as the rest of the Greek women( who themselves were treated as brood mares )but in a different way . I’ve posted 3 sources that confirm Ancient Greek women were treated as chattels for Greek men and you have posted nothing to refute it.So if you don’t mind I’ll believe the believable source Because I agree with it - as I have already stated, more than once. But they were treated as "high value" chattels, because of the esteem of breeding "legal citizens". You "own" some things right? You place more value on some of the things you own than on others. You invest more in some of the things you own that you do others. If you own a house I will bet my left bollock you value it more than the cooker in the kitchen; I am willing to bet you invest more in maintaining and protecting the house than you do the cooker. Therefore the principle that something can be owned but still held in high regard, and maintained properly is not even really a contentious point. So why are you making it one? I have said the way Greek women treated was sexist, I have said they were not afford all the rights of Citizenship (neither were Spartan women); I think we would both agree so far. Why is it so hard for you to grasp that despite those things Greek Women were held in high regard. All The Best Why is it so hard for you to,admit that you are mistaken and that regarding women as chattels is not holding them in high esteem . Your attempt at mental gymnastics is predictable. Expecting me to accept it is risible . Ive heard that some argued against anti slavery because slaves were an expensive commodity and therefore the slave owner looks after them whereas if they were freed , no one would . Its amusing to hear a similar kind of crap trap used to save an argument that is already lost .
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Post by ratcliff on Jul 2, 2024 15:03:36 GMT
Ignorant and false in once sentence. You know why most priestly robes look like dresses?Because originally the priests of almost all religions were female - hence female garb. Don't be daft. Have a think about Roman soldiers Interesting idea- I'd assumed that dress like garb for ancient time soldiers and religious personnel was to do with ease of bodily functions whilst on the go
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 2, 2024 15:19:42 GMT
Don't be daft. Have a think about Roman soldiers Interesting idea- I'd assumed that dress like garb for ancient time soldiers and religious personnel was to do with ease of bodily functions whilst on the go Well, the Kilt certainly allowed for that, and for freedom of movement in battle and strenuous activity. It was also the case that the ancient cultures of both Rome and Greece heralded from much warmer climes, and so loose fitting garments, without sleeves, were more than functional. As they moved northwards the Romans, especially the army, adopted more northern style clothing, often with knitted breeches worn under the kilt, and with what are now called puttees being used as well. I once read a paper that suggested that part of the reason for the lack of trousers and sleeves in ancient Mediterranean clothing was also influenced by the lack of the right materials and clothing construction techniques - that had not developed because the warmer climes had not necessitated developing them. All very difficult to prove from primary sources without reference to the hard-art imagery of the time, because clothing tends not to survive too well over such periods of time. All The Best
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 2, 2024 15:30:48 GMT
Because I agree with it - as I have already stated, more than once. But they were treated as "high value" chattels, because of the esteem of breeding "legal citizens". You "own" some things right? You place more value on some of the things you own than on others. You invest more in some of the things you own that you do others. If you own a house I will bet my left bollock you value it more than the cooker in the kitchen; I am willing to bet you invest more in maintaining and protecting the house than you do the cooker. Therefore the principle that something can be owned but still held in high regard, and maintained properly is not even really a contentious point. So why are you making it one? I have said the way Greek women treated was sexist, I have said they were not afford all the rights of Citizenship (neither were Spartan women); I think we would both agree so far. Why is it so hard for you to grasp that despite those things Greek Women were held in high regard. All The Best Why is it so hard for you to,admit that you are mistaken and that regarding women as chattels is not holding them in high esteem . Your attempt at mental gymnastics is predictable. Expecting me to accept it is risible . Ive heard that some argued against anti slavery because slaves were an expensive commodity and therefore the slave owner looks after them whereas if they were freed , no one would . Its amusing to hear a similar kind of crap trap used to save an argument that is already lost . Are you telling me you don't value or invest in your house more than you value or invest in your cooker? Because if you are I AM calling you a liar. That clearly establishes the fundamental principle that one possession can be valued and regarded as being of more worth, and worthy of more respect, than another. Look, you want go to a University Library and pick up a few books on sociology and law in Ancient Greece then be my guest. But it is clear that from contemporary sources, primarily aimed at the literate upper classes, that part of the reason Greek (especially Athenian) women were treated (by modern standards) so badly was because of the prestige they conferred by producing legal citizens. The way to ensure that was to keep them away from men who were not legal citizens. Yes, they were chattels, but the WERE high-value chattels, held in significant esteem. NOTE: I am not saying I necessarily agree with these sentiments; just that they were the established sentiments of the times. When talking of historic periods, especially the further back in time you go, you have to be very, very, VERY careful not to corrupt the "thinking of the time" by over exposing it through the "lens of the now". Almost no one today would suggest that slavery is acceptable. However, reporting that slavery was acceptable to the Romans and Greeks and that sometimes people actually chose to become slaves, and that some slaves were treated really well (some being treated even better than freeborn men) is not to condone those situations, nor does it diminish that horrible treatment experience by the vast majority of claves; it is merely to acknowledge they existed and that was how people of that time thought and behaved. All The Best
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Post by Bentley on Jul 2, 2024 15:53:12 GMT
Why is it so hard for you to,admit that you are mistaken and that regarding women as chattels is not holding them in high esteem . Your attempt at mental gymnastics is predictable. Expecting me to accept it is risible . Ive heard that some argued against anti slavery because slaves were an expensive commodity and therefore the slave owner looks after them whereas if they were freed , no one would . Its amusing to hear a similar kind of crap trap used to save an argument that is already lost . Are you telling me you don't value or invest in your house more than you value or invest in your cooker? Because if you are I AM calling you a liar. That clearly establishes the fundamental principle that one possession can be valued and regarded as being of more worth, and worthy of more respect, than another. Look, you want go to a University Library and pick up a few books on sociology and law in Ancient Greece then be my guest. But it is clear that from contemporary sources, primarily aimed at the literate upper classes, that part of the reason Greek (especially Athenian) women were treated (by modern standards) so badly was because of the prestige they conferred by producing legal citizens. The way to ensure that was to keep them away from men who were not legal citizens. Yes, they were chattels, but the WERE high-value chattels, held in significant esteem. NOTE: I am not saying I necessarily agree with these sentiments; just that they were the established sentiments of the times. When talking of historic periods, especially the further back in time you go, you have to be very, very, VERY careful not to corrupt the "thinking of the time" by over exposing it through the "lens of the now". Almost no one today would suggest that slavery is acceptable. However, reporting that slavery was acceptable to the Romans and Greeks and that sometimes people actually chose to become slaves, and that some slaves were treated really well (some being treated even better than freeborn men) is not to condone those situations, nor does it diminish that horrible treatment experience by the vast majority of claves; it is merely to acknowledge they existed and that was how people of that time thought and behaved. All The Best More mental gymnastics and tbh bullshit . If you are telling me that treating women as brood mares is a sign of holding them in high esteem then I am telling you that you are the liar , not me . The moment a society treats other humans as chattels , they stop holding those humans in high esteem . It’s not too hard a concept to understand. That applies no matter how much bullshit and verbiage you try to cover it with. Bollocks about cookers and attempts to appear knowledgeable by banal requests to ‘ go figure ‘ doesn’t support your false claim either.
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Post by Orac on Jul 2, 2024 16:01:41 GMT
Interesting idea- I'd assumed that dress like garb for ancient time soldiers and religious personnel was to do with ease of bodily functions whilst on the go Well, the Kilt certainly allowed for that, and for freedom of movement in battle and strenuous activity. It was also the case that the ancient cultures of both Rome and Greece heralded from much warmer climes, and so loose fitting garments, without sleeves, were more than functional. As they moved northwards the Romans, especially the army, adopted more northern style clothing, often with knitted breeches worn under the kilt, and with what are now called puttees being used as well. Split-type lower dress didn't become common in Europe until ~ the 13th C. Robes and dresses are just simpler.
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 2, 2024 16:54:41 GMT
Are you telling me you don't value or invest in your house more than you value or invest in your cooker? Because if you are I AM calling you a liar. That clearly establishes the fundamental principle that one possession can be valued and regarded as being of more worth, and worthy of more respect, than another. Look, you want go to a University Library and pick up a few books on sociology and law in Ancient Greece then be my guest. But it is clear that from contemporary sources, primarily aimed at the literate upper classes, that part of the reason Greek (especially Athenian) women were treated (by modern standards) so badly was because of the prestige they conferred by producing legal citizens. The way to ensure that was to keep them away from men who were not legal citizens. Yes, they were chattels, but the WERE high-value chattels, held in significant esteem. NOTE: I am not saying I necessarily agree with these sentiments; just that they were the established sentiments of the times. When talking of historic periods, especially the further back in time you go, you have to be very, very, VERY careful not to corrupt the "thinking of the time" by over exposing it through the "lens of the now". Almost no one today would suggest that slavery is acceptable. However, reporting that slavery was acceptable to the Romans and Greeks and that sometimes people actually chose to become slaves, and that some slaves were treated really well (some being treated even better than freeborn men) is not to condone those situations, nor does it diminish that horrible treatment experience by the vast majority of claves; it is merely to acknowledge they existed and that was how people of that time thought and behaved. All The Best More mental gymnastics and tbh bullshit . If you are telling me that treating women as brood mares is a sign of holding them in high esteem then I am telling you that you are the liar , not me . The moment a society treats other humans as chattels , they stop holding those humans in high esteem . It’s not too hard a concept to understand. That applies no matter how much bullshit and verbiage you try to cover it with. Bollocks about cookers and attempts to appear knowledgeable by banal requests to ‘ go figure ‘ doesn’t support your false claim either. So race horse breeders don't hold successful brood mares in high esteem? They mistreat them? They think nothing more of them than they would a Blackpool Beach donkey? You are falling into the anachronism fallacy - judging past cultures by modern moral standards and then making assumptions about what that means about how that past culture viewed the world; while at the same time ignoring the ample contemporary evidence that being able to produce a legal Athenian <Insert other City-State> Citizen was something that was held in high esteem. Either one of those fundamental errors would imply the person making it has no understanding of either history or historiography; both together would suggest they are either an ignorant fucktard or a troll. I am not yet sure which. All The Best
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 2, 2024 17:01:32 GMT
Well, the Kilt certainly allowed for that, and for freedom of movement in battle and strenuous activity. It was also the case that the ancient cultures of both Rome and Greece heralded from much warmer climes, and so loose fitting garments, without sleeves, were more than functional. As they moved northwards the Romans, especially the army, adopted more northern style clothing, often with knitted breeches worn under the kilt, and with what are now called puttees being used as well. Split-type lower dress didn't become common in Europe until ~ the 13th C. Robes and dresses are just simpler. Really? The Tuetons (ancient Germans contemporary with the later Roman Republic, early Roman Empire) wore woollen, knitted trousers - long or short - usually under a tunic or smock. Celts of the same period were wearing brightly chequered trousers or breeches.That was over 1,000 years before the 13thC. All The Best
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Post by Bentley on Jul 2, 2024 17:02:02 GMT
More mental gymnastics and tbh bullshit . If you are telling me that treating women as brood mares is a sign of holding them in high esteem then I am telling you that you are the liar , not me . The moment a society treats other humans as chattels , they stop holding those humans in high esteem . It’s not too hard a concept to understand. That applies no matter how much bullshit and verbiage you try to cover it with. Bollocks about cookers and attempts to appear knowledgeable by banal requests to ‘ go figure ‘ doesn’t support your false claim either. So race horse breeders don't hold successful brood mares in high esteem? They mistreat them? They think nothing more of them than they would a Blackpool Beach donkey? You are falling into the anachronism fallacy - judging past cultures by modern moral standards and then making assumptions about what that means about how that past culture viewed the world; while at the same time ignoring the ample contemporary evidence that being able to produce a legal Athenian <Insert other City-State> Citizen was something that was held in high esteem. Either one of those fundamental errors would imply the person making it has no understanding of either history or historiography; both together would suggest they are either an ignorant fucktard or a troll. I am not yet sure which. All The Best You are one peddling a fallacy . A breeder holds a brood mare in ‘ high esteem ‘ because he doesn’t mistreat it ?…really ? Holding women in high esteem according to you … “Greek women had virtually no political rights of any kind and were controlled by men at nearly every stage of their lives. The most important duties for a city-dwelling woman were to bear children--preferably male--and to run the household.” ” Women in Classical Athens had no legal personhood and were assumed to be part of the oikos (household) headed by the male kyrios (master). In Athenian society, the legal term of a wife was known as a damar, a word that is derived from the root meaning of "to subdue" or "to tame".[9] Until marriage, women were under the guardianship of their fathers or other male relatives; once married, the husband became a woman's kyrios. While the average age to get married for men was around 30, the average age for women was 14. This system was implemented as a way to help ensure that girls were virgins when they wed.” ”Women in the ancient Greek world had few rights in comparison to male citizens. Unable to vote, own land, or inherit, a woman's place was in the home and her purpose in life was the rearing of children. That is a general description and when considering Greek women one should remember our sources are incomplete and not always unbiased.” Then we have the analogy of a cooker and brood mares v Blackpool beach donkeys . Your argument is beyond risible and into farcical.
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 2, 2024 17:11:44 GMT
So race horse breeders don't hold successful brood mares in high esteem? They mistreat them? They think nothing more of them than they would a Blackpool Beach donkey? You are falling into the anachronism fallacy - judging past cultures by modern moral standards and then making assumptions about what that means about how that past culture viewed the world; while at the same time ignoring the ample contemporary evidence that being able to produce a legal Athenian <Insert other City-State> Citizen was something that was held in high esteem. Either one of those fundamental errors would imply the person making it has no understanding of either history or historiography; both together would suggest they are either an ignorant fucktard or a troll. I am not yet sure which. All The Best You are one peddling a fallacy . A breeder holds a brood mare in ‘ high esteem ‘ because he doesn’t mistreat it ?…really ? Holding women in high esteem according to you … “ Greek women had virtually no political rights of any kind and were controlled by men at nearly every stage of their lives. The most important duties for a city-dwelling woman were to bear children--preferably male--and to run the household.” ” Women in Classical Athens had no legal personhood and were assumed to be part of the oikos (household) headed by the male kyrios (master). In Athenian society, the legal term of a wife was known as a damar, a word that is derived from the root meaning of "to subdue" or "to tame".[9] Until marriage, women were under the guardianship of their fathers or other male relatives; once married, the husband became a woman's kyrios. While the average age to get married for men was around 30, the average age for women was 14. This system was implemented as a way to help ensure that girls were virgins when they wed.” ”Women in the ancient Greek world had few rights in comparison to male citizens. Unable to vote, own land, or inherit, a woman's place was in the home and her purpose in life was the rearing of children. That is a general description and when considering Greek women one should remember our sources are incomplete and not always unbiased.” Then we have the analogy of a cooker and brood mares v Blackpool beach donkeys . Your argument is beyond risible and into farcical. You are still making the anachronistic fallacy. I AGREE with the quoted but above. That does NOT mean they weren't valued, or held in high esteem. Their "role" within society at that time was to a) produce heirs, and b) manage the household. The former to ensure the continuation of the Family and City State, the latter to allow the "man of the house" time for War and Politics - which were the primary routes to both wealth and power. If you lived in a society where your route to prosperity relied, almost totally, on having a wife who could provide heirs and run a household do you honestly suggest that a man with such a wife would not hold her in high esteem (relative to the social norms of the day)? His whole social, economic, and political "career" depended on her doing that for him. STOP judging this by modern social standards; then you may finally start to understand it at something above primary school level. All The Best
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Post by Bentley on Jul 2, 2024 17:23:04 GMT
You are one peddling a fallacy . A breeder holds a brood mare in ‘ high esteem ‘ because he doesn’t mistreat it ?…really ? Holding women in high esteem according to you … “ Greek women had virtually no political rights of any kind and were controlled by men at nearly every stage of their lives. The most important duties for a city-dwelling woman were to bear children--preferably male--and to run the household.” ” Women in Classical Athens had no legal personhood and were assumed to be part of the oikos (household) headed by the male kyrios (master). In Athenian society, the legal term of a wife was known as a damar, a word that is derived from the root meaning of "to subdue" or "to tame".[9] Until marriage, women were under the guardianship of their fathers or other male relatives; once married, the husband became a woman's kyrios. While the average age to get married for men was around 30, the average age for women was 14. This system was implemented as a way to help ensure that girls were virgins when they wed.” ”Women in the ancient Greek world had few rights in comparison to male citizens. Unable to vote, own land, or inherit, a woman's place was in the home and her purpose in life was the rearing of children. That is a general description and when considering Greek women one should remember our sources are incomplete and not always unbiased.” Then we have the analogy of a cooker and brood mares v Blackpool beach donkeys . Your argument is beyond risible and into farcical. You are still making the anachronistic fallacy. I AGREE with the quoted but above. That does NOT mean they weren't valued, or held in high esteem. Their "role" within society at that time was to a) produce heirs, and b) manage the household. The former to ensure the continuation of the Family and City State, the latter to allow the "man of the house" time for War and Politics - which were the primary routes to both wealth and power. If you lived in a society where your route to prosperity relied, almost totally, on having a wife who could provide heirs and run a household do you honestly suggest that a man with such a wife would not hold her in high esteem (relative to the social norms of the day)? His whole social, economic, and political "career" depended on her doing that for him. STOP judging this by modern social standards; then you may finally start to understand it at something above primary school level. All The Best They were not held in high esteem . Stop peddling this ridiculous claim . Your car , house , wallet bank account or pedigree dog are not held in high esteem . Chattels are not held in high esteem even valuable ones. You keep making a false claim and refuting it every time you post .
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Post by Orac on Jul 2, 2024 17:47:39 GMT
Split-type lower dress didn't become common in Europe until ~ the 13th C. Robes and dresses are just simpler. Really? Yes really. Or to put it directly to you because you don't seem very good at catching an inference - before this, a 'dress' would not have meant a female.
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 2, 2024 18:50:13 GMT
You are still making the anachronistic fallacy. I AGREE with the quoted but above. That does NOT mean they weren't valued, or held in high esteem. Their "role" within society at that time was to a) produce heirs, and b) manage the household. The former to ensure the continuation of the Family and City State, the latter to allow the "man of the house" time for War and Politics - which were the primary routes to both wealth and power. If you lived in a society where your route to prosperity relied, almost totally, on having a wife who could provide heirs and run a household do you honestly suggest that a man with such a wife would not hold her in high esteem (relative to the social norms of the day)? His whole social, economic, and political "career" depended on her doing that for him. STOP judging this by modern social standards; then you may finally start to understand it at something above primary school level. All The Best They were not held in high esteem . Stop peddling this ridiculous claim . Your car , house , wallet bank account or pedigree dog are not held in high esteem . Chattels are not held in high esteem even valuable ones. You keep making a false claim and refuting it every time you post . Well, I guess you know better than the Classics Department at one of the top ten universities in the country then. We should let them all know they have been teaching it all wrong because of 5 minutes you spent with google, but with no understanding of contemporaneous context, and while exhibiting the anachronistic fallacy numerous times. Oh, wait, no we shouldn't... All The Best
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Post by Bentley on Jul 2, 2024 18:55:04 GMT
They were not held in high esteem . Stop peddling this ridiculous claim . Your car , house , wallet bank account or pedigree dog are not held in high esteem . Chattels are not held in high esteem even valuable ones. You keep making a false claim and refuting it every time you post . Well, I guess you know better than the Classics Department at one of the top ten universities in the country then. We should let them all know they have been teaching it all wrong because of 5 minutes you spent with google, but with no understanding of contemporaneous context, and while exhibiting the anachronistic fallacy numerous times. Oh, wait, no we shouldn't... All The Best I have three links that support my position . I’m going to take more notice of those rather than a bloke who says he wrote an essay about it and compares human chattels to brood mares and cookers . Tbh it would take one minute to refute that nonsense.
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