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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 3, 2024 21:10:46 GMT
Prototype fuel cells aren't cheap, price comes down with mass production. Think about it. Another benefit of fuel cells, they're lighter than batteries, less flammable than lithium ion crap, cars have better range, cause less wear to the roads and have a longer service life costing less in maintenance. Actually I think the new sodium batteries look very promising. They are 1/10 of the cost of lithium ion for the same energy, but only give about half the energy density, but this number is rising as they are refined. The point being that with batteries so cheap they can potentially bring the price of cars down to levels that would amaze you. The battery is the main cost along with the chips that China can produce for a tiny fraction of the cost, because European suppliers were ripping us off as per usual.
Unless there is a breakthrough in science then fuel cells will need precious metals which would rise in cost if you mass produced them, as per price rises as demand does. That's why no one is seriously considering them, but 20 years ago they figured they might be able to avoid these metals. So far no joy. I think you will find it is a limitation in physics.
The best thing the UK can do is ramp up its science research and when we have an invention we should not hand it over to the yanks, as we tend to do every time. We should exploit our own science for modern manufacturing. The UK will find it hard to invest in full EV production as the investment is huge, more so than ICE cars apparently, but we can get in on the supply chain somewhere. One problem with our country is it thinks it can bullshit the customer via slimy salesmen. In the modern world it is just about your product and if it is the best or not. If it performs it will make a mint.
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 4, 2024 6:46:54 GMT
The problem here, BvL, is that our politicians have been panicked, by the climate change loonies, into adopting a strategy on cars (and energy in general) that is half-baked. We're talking about banning the sale of new petrol/diesel cars by 2030/5 when we haven't got a viable replacement for them. All the options have unresolved problems - and the Li-ion battery is obviously a non-starter. It's fine in small electronic equipment but the idea that this can be used to power cars is insane for so many reasons.
I still think the HFC could be the answer but this involves the government sorting out its policy towards energy (and hydrogen) but there are no signs of this happening. It's a shambles.
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Post by Vinny on Jul 4, 2024 7:09:19 GMT
If you want to decarbonise the UK's electricity, build 25 thorium nuclear power stations.
If you want to decarbonise road traffic, synthesise hydrocarbon fuel with them via carbon capture.
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 5, 2024 6:35:19 GMT
If you want to decarbonise the UK's electricity, build 25 thorium nuclear power stations. If you want to decarbonise road traffic, synthesise hydrocarbon fuel with them via carbon capture. Synthetic fuel is very expensive because of all the energy that you have to put in to create the hydrocarbons (that you get for nothing from oil - all naturally created using the Sun's energy). |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 5, 2024 7:10:44 GMT
Expensive to build the infrastructure, but once working, solar powered. Nuclear powered. Wind powered. Tidal powered.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 5, 2024 10:23:45 GMT
The problem here, BvL, is that our politicians have been panicked, by the climate change loonies, into adopting a strategy on cars (and energy in general) that is half-baked. We're talking about banning the sale of new petrol/diesel cars by 2030/5 when we haven't got a viable replacement for them. All the options have unresolved problems - and the Li-ion battery is obviously a non-starter. It's fine in small electronic equipment but the idea that this can be used to power cars is insane for so many reasons. I still think the HFC could be the answer but this involves the government sorting out its policy towards energy (and hydrogen) but there are no signs of this happening. It's a shambles. Billions have been invested in fuel cell research, and virtually no one makes fuel cells. Ali Express has a 10kWh for 17 grand + VAT. I would personally not put my money anywhere near the idea. The problem seems to be the laws of physics. |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 5, 2024 11:56:49 GMT
Even the Chinese are making fuel cells (because Lithium Ion batteries are a crap choice for powering cars).
Manufacturers of fuel cells in China include:
Ballard Power System Inc.
Toshiba Fuel Cell Power System Corporation.
Fuelcell Energy Inc.
Plug Power Inc.
Horizon Fuel Cell Technologies Pte Ltd.
TIANNENG
CORUN
BEST
Narada
SinoHytec-U
FURUISE
HUACHANG CHEMICAL
DEC
ZHONGDING GROUP
BROAD-OCEAN
Copied from a google search.
Once enough cars powered by this tech are on the market the cost will go down and lithium ion battery electric vehicles will disappear from the market (because they're crap unsafe fire hazards).
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 6, 2024 6:59:36 GMT
Expensive to build the infrastructure, but once working, solar powered. Nuclear powered. Wind powered. Tidal powered. It seems a bit perverse to use all this (relatively green) energy to make synthetic petrol which is then fed through an ICE engine that returns about 30% of the energy that was used to make the petrol in the first place. It would be better to use the energy in the form of electricity and get about 90% back. The only difficulty, of course, is how to store the electricity, of course. |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 6, 2024 7:14:25 GMT
There's so much CO2 in the atmosphere, harvesting it creates a closed cycle and there so many internal combustion engines out there capable of running on synthetic fuels.
Governments are trying to reinvent the wheel instead of simply replacing fossil fuels with synthetics.
Synthetic fuels can run in fuel cells too.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 6, 2024 7:31:44 GMT
There's so much CO2 in the atmosphere, harvesting it creates a closed cycle and there so many internal combustion engines out there capable of running on synthetic fuels. Governments are trying to reinvent the wheel instead of simply replacing fossil fuels with synthetics. Synthetic fuels can run in fuel cells too. You just ignore facts mentioned only a few posts away, so it is no longer worth debating with you. What don't you get about rare = expensive & expensive = no sales? |
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 6, 2024 7:45:16 GMT
There's so much CO2 in the atmosphere, harvesting it creates a closed cycle and there so many internal combustion engines out there capable of running on synthetic fuels. Governments are trying to reinvent the wheel instead of simply replacing fossil fuels with synthetics. Synthetic fuels can run in fuel cells too. You just ignore facts mentioned only a few posts away, so it is no longer worth debating with you. What don't you get about rare = expensive & expensive = no sales? I'm not so sure BvL. You're right that HFCs do rely on rare elements - just like Li-ion batteries - but they're used as catalysts so they aren't used up and can be 100% recycled. The recycling of batteries is very difficult and expensive. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 6, 2024 8:15:37 GMT
You just ignore facts mentioned only a few posts away, so it is no longer worth debating with you. What don't you get about rare = expensive & expensive = no sales? I'm not so sure BvL. You're right that HFCs do rely on rare elements - just like Li-ion batteries - but they're used as catalysts so they aren't used up and can be 100% recycled. The recycling of batteries is very difficult and expensive. CATL can recycle 99% of their batteries. I think what they are doing over there is making the manufacturer responsible for the whole cycle and the price the customer pays is for the whole cycle. It makes perfect economic sense since the battery designers sell on the basis of the entire cost, not say produce cheap batteries that cost more money when recycling is factored in. Anyhow that is the capitalist approach. I know Vinny is a commie! |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 6, 2024 9:01:31 GMT
Battery recycling is messy and toxic.
Hydrogen electrolysis is clean.
Fuel synthesis is clean.
Fuel cells and electric motors is a better option than battery electric vehicles.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 6, 2024 9:24:50 GMT
Battery recycling is messy and toxic. Hydrogen electrolysis is clean. Fuel synthesis is clean. Fuel cells and electric motors is a better option than battery electric vehicles. No, the logic is that if the manufacturer is responsible for the recycling then they are going to design batteries easy to recycle, and I think you will find it goes one step further, as per design batteries which machines can recycle. I recall seeing a short clip on a video somewhere showing you their recycling plant. CATL is a really futuristic company. They are huge. |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 6, 2024 9:34:19 GMT
Chinese crap.
Not interested.
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