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Post by ProVeritas on Jun 18, 2024 16:04:07 GMT
That's rich. Any piss poor deal was as a result of those in parliament, and out, who spent as much time and effort as possible to ensure that any 'deal' was effectively Remaining in in all but name. Boris got the majority to actually enable leave but by that time the negotiations had secured very little other than turning over and allow the EU to tickle our stomach. You think we forget the continued Remain campaign that continuously blamed Brexit, or potential Brexit, for everything from the price of grommets to global warming and how that was delivered by the media in a concerted, and carefully timed, campaign of 'information'. And it still goes on. Those in opposition had no control or power, the control and power rested with the government. I suggest you stop looking for ways to excuse those in power who made a mess of Brexit. So you never once blamed Thatcher or previous Tory governments for things Blair and Brown got wrong? Oh, wait, yes you did, almost weekly. All The Best |
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Post by Pacifico on Jun 18, 2024 17:03:31 GMT
That's rich. Any piss poor deal was as a result of those in parliament, and out, who spent as much time and effort as possible to ensure that any 'deal' was effectively Remaining in in all but name. Boris got the majority to actually enable leave but by that time the negotiations had secured very little other than turning over and allow the EU to tickle our stomach. You think we forget the continued Remain campaign that continuously blamed Brexit, or potential Brexit, for everything from the price of grommets to global warming and how that was delivered by the media in a concerted, and carefully timed, campaign of 'information'. And it still goes on. Brexit certainly DID play a huge part in the increased costs of almost all goods and commodities, because we are a Net Importer and a LOT of our Imports came from the EU. That shouldn't bee too hard for anyone to figure out, even people like me who voted Leave and still think a Out is a better long-term option than In; but I am not dishonest enough to pretend Brexit had no impact on the Cost Of Living Crisis - it quite clearly did, and continues to do so. The "piss poor deal" was entirely down to the crass, ideologically driven, incompetence of the Government of the day, that is a Conservative Government.Well to be fair to them it is the only deal that could get through Parliament - every other option was rejected. |
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Post by sandypine on Jun 18, 2024 17:11:00 GMT
That's rich. Any piss poor deal was as a result of those in parliament, and out, who spent as much time and effort as possible to ensure that any 'deal' was effectively Remaining in in all but name. Boris got the majority to actually enable leave but by that time the negotiations had secured very little other than turning over and allow the EU to tickle our stomach. You think we forget the continued Remain campaign that continuously blamed Brexit, or potential Brexit, for everything from the price of grommets to global warming and how that was delivered by the media in a concerted, and carefully timed, campaign of 'information'. And it still goes on. Those in opposition had no control or power, the control and power rested with the government. I suggest you stop looking for ways to excuse those in power who made a mess of Brexit. Of course they had levels of power, to block, to adjust, to apply legal pressure, to initiate debate. That does not excuse those making a mess of it but explains why a mess was pressed forward as all routes became a mess. |
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Post by sandypine on Jun 18, 2024 17:23:23 GMT
That's rich. Any piss poor deal was as a result of those in parliament, and out, who spent as much time and effort as possible to ensure that any 'deal' was effectively Remaining in in all but name. Boris got the majority to actually enable leave but by that time the negotiations had secured very little other than turning over and allow the EU to tickle our stomach. You think we forget the continued Remain campaign that continuously blamed Brexit, or potential Brexit, for everything from the price of grommets to global warming and how that was delivered by the media in a concerted, and carefully timed, campaign of 'information'. And it still goes on. Brexit certainly DID play a huge part in the increased costs of almost all goods and commodities, because we are a Net Importer and a LOT of our Imports came from the EU. That shouldn't bee too hard for anyone to figure out, even people like me who voted Leave and still think a Out is a better long-term option than In; but I am not dishonest enough to pretend Brexit had no impact on the Cost Of Living Crisis - it quite clearly did, and continues to do so. The "piss poor deal" was entirely down to the crass, ideologically driven, incompetence of the Government of the day, that is a Conservative Government. You can clearly see from what has happened since that the Conservatives had no interest at all in controlling our borders, and limiting immigration. That is because the people they exclusively serve - big business (not the electorate as some are naïve enough to think) - like excess labour-pools to drive down the cost of labour and drive up the cost of living, thus generating more profits for no real improvement in either goods or services offered. Of course Labour had no intention whatsoever of controlling immigration either, but for very different, but equally ideologically driven, reasons. Of course, the real way to break the "ideology monopoly" of only having two electable parties, both of whom want more immigration, was to vote to change the FPTP Voting System. We had that chance, and fucked it up. All The Best Of course Brexit played a part in some increased costs in exactly the same way that some costs increased on joining both the Common Market in 73 and when the single market was launched in 93. The problem is that in 73 and 93 those who supported the project said it was all worth it. Well now it is worth it. Large changes bring costs, normal fact of life. That does not mean one eschews those changes as the pro marketeers repeated again and again over the years. I am not saying the Tories did not make a fist of it I am saying that things could have been better if there was not such a large and powerful group inside and outside parliament keen to scupper any deal that did not effectively keep us in. |
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Post by sandypine on Jun 18, 2024 17:31:15 GMT
There is some truth in his post, Brexit was a path of opportunity that had to be taken. The fact that no political force really wanted to take it of course means that it could never happen effectively. They were always trying to mitigate the effects they believed would happen and follow the paths of least resistance which of course were EU guided paths. Nonsense. It was not a necessary path to take. It couldn't happen effectively because none of those who chose that path knew how to navigate it. They had no option other than to muggle their way around the mess they created. The path chosen was the path pushed upon them through negotiation, parliamentary pressure, extensive pro EU lobbying, scare tactics and general reluctance to do otherwise. The mess was not created solely by them it arose through a series of legal challenges, parliamentary rejection and insidious lobbying to bring about a Brexit largely in name only. It was a muddle no doubt about it but it was not solely created by those who drew it up, it was joint exercise in making Brexit at best luke warm and oven ready for a return. |
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Post by ProVeritas on Jun 18, 2024 19:28:24 GMT
Brexit certainly DID play a huge part in the increased costs of almost all goods and commodities, because we are a Net Importer and a LOT of our Imports came from the EU. That shouldn't bee too hard for anyone to figure out, even people like me who voted Leave and still think a Out is a better long-term option than In; but I am not dishonest enough to pretend Brexit had no impact on the Cost Of Living Crisis - it quite clearly did, and continues to do so. The "piss poor deal" was entirely down to the crass, ideologically driven, incompetence of the Government of the day, that is a Conservative Government. You can clearly see from what has happened since that the Conservatives had no interest at all in controlling our borders, and limiting immigration. That is because the people they exclusively serve - big business (not the electorate as some are naïve enough to think) - like excess labour-pools to drive down the cost of labour and drive up the cost of living, thus generating more profits for no real improvement in either goods or services offered. Of course Labour had no intention whatsoever of controlling immigration either, but for very different, but equally ideologically driven, reasons. Of course, the real way to break the "ideology monopoly" of only having two electable parties, both of whom want more immigration, was to vote to change the FPTP Voting System. We had that chance, and fucked it up. All The Best Of course Brexit played a part in some increased costs in exactly the same way that some costs increased on joining both the Common Market in 73 and when the single market was launched in 93. The problem is that in 73 and 93 those who supported the project said it was all worth it. Well now it is worth it. Large changes bring costs, normal fact of life. That does not mean one eschews those changes as the pro marketeers repeated again and again over the years. I am not saying the Tories did not make a fist of it I am saying that things could have been better if there was not such a large and powerful group inside and outside parliament keen to scupper any deal that did not effectively keep us in. I am 100% in agreement with your final sentence. Of course we have to ask why the majority of Both Tory and Labour MPs seemingly wanted us to stay In. I think the answer is entirely the same for both parties: they didn't want to have to tackle Immigration. The Tories want Immigration to keep wages low, and costs high, thus driving profit for the group they really serve - big business. Labour want Immigration because they foolishly thought, arguably still think, that the incoming migrants will primarily vote Labour, when the truth is most inward migration to the UK comes from countries where the prevailing political winds are significantly more right-wing that even today's Tory-Light-Right-Labour. I vote leave for two reasons: 1) Immigration: uncontrolled immigration is destroying this country, not it terms of skin colour etc, in terms of too many people placing far too much pressure on already disastrously over-stretched public services and social housing, in terms of how an ever increasing surplus manpower pool depresses wages and increases the cost of living. 2) Democratic Accountability: I was just sick and tired of MP of all stripes trotting out the "we'd like to do X but the EU won't let us" bullshit excuse, because 90% of the time it was rolled out it was manifestly untrue, but the vast majority of the population were, and are, too politically uninformed to know that. I still think we are, even just for the second of those reasons, better off Out - but we could, and should, have got a much better Out Deal. All The Best |
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Post by Fairsociety on Jun 18, 2024 19:45:44 GMT
It's as plain as the nose on your face ... The EU and the other daft remoaners played the race card... they tried to make the Referendum about racism, knowing 'one' of the main reasons for Brexit was immigration ..... hence the reason they are 'punishing' the UK by allowing France to use its border to start a France-UK dinghy service ...... in other words ..... fuck you UK we will teach you a lesson .... we will FLOOD you with migrants ... it's as plain as a Bulgarian pin-up.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jun 18, 2024 21:34:40 GMT
It's as plain as the nose on your face ... The EU and the other daft remoaners played the race card... they tried to make the Referendum about racism, knowing 'one' of the main reasons for Brexit was immigration ..... hence the reason they are 'punishing' the UK by allowing France to use its border to start a France-UK dinghy service ...... in other words ..... fuck you UK we will teach you a lesson .... we will FLOOD you with migrants ... it's as plain as a Bulgarian pin-up. The main two problems are we are a signatory to the 1951 UN refugee convention and a member of the ECHR. The Cons are split, where you have half of them in the One Nation Conservatives and the rest who want stronger measures. In other words they are blackmailed by this group and can't do what is necessary to make the whole thing legal. So it kind of hangs in limbo. If we got out of these two agreements we could simply ship the lot back to where they came from. |
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Post by ProVeritas on Jun 19, 2024 0:16:32 GMT
It's as plain as the nose on your face ... The EU and the other daft remoaners played the race card... they tried to make the Referendum about racism, knowing 'one' of the main reasons for Brexit was immigration ..... hence the reason they are 'punishing' the UK by allowing France to use its border to start a France-UK dinghy service ...... in other words ..... fuck you UK we will teach you a lesson .... we will FLOOD you with migrants ... it's as plain as a Bulgarian pin-up. The main two problems are we are a signatory to the 1951 UN refugee convention and a member of the ECHR. The Cons are split, where you have half of them in the One Nation Conservatives and the rest who want stronger measures. In other words they are blackmailed by this group and can't do what is necessary to make the whole thing legal. So it kind of hangs in limbo. If we got out of these two agreements we could simply ship the lot back to where they came from. If the British Public were ever stupid enough grant a mandate to any government intent on abandoning the ECHR it would be the worst day in this country's history. Worker's Rights - Gone The ECHR is what ensures workers have a right to pay, and not be treated as slaves. The ECHR is what ensures workers have a right to breaks, and annual leave. The ECHR is what ensures workers have the right to set standards of safety within the workplace. Abandoning the ECHR would see the UK workforce in a race to the bottom with the likes of China etc. Women's Rights - Gone The only people to benefit from us abandoning the ECHR would be the Corporate-Fascists the Conservatives already serve. All The Best |
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Post by see2 on Jun 19, 2024 5:21:22 GMT
Those in opposition had no control or power, the control and power rested with the government. I suggest you stop looking for ways to excuse those in power who made a mess of Brexit. So you never once blamed Thatcher or previous Tory governments for things Blair and Brown got wrong? Oh, wait, yes you did, almost weekly. All The Best LIAR |
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Post by see2 on Jun 19, 2024 5:23:25 GMT
Brexit certainly DID play a huge part in the increased costs of almost all goods and commodities, because we are a Net Importer and a LOT of our Imports came from the EU. That shouldn't bee too hard for anyone to figure out, even people like me who voted Leave and still think a Out is a better long-term option than In; but I am not dishonest enough to pretend Brexit had no impact on the Cost Of Living Crisis - it quite clearly did, and continues to do so. The "piss poor deal" was entirely down to the crass, ideologically driven, incompetence of the Government of the day, that is a Conservative Government.Well to be fair to them it is the only deal that could get through Parliament - every other option was rejected. Even though the Tories had a majority in parliament? |
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Post by see2 on Jun 19, 2024 5:27:42 GMT
Those in opposition had no control or power, the control and power rested with the government. I suggest you stop looking for ways to excuse those in power who made a mess of Brexit. Of course they had levels of power, to block, to adjust, to apply legal pressure, to initiate debate. That does not excuse those making a mess of it but explains why a mess was pressed forward as all routes became a mess. The Tories had the majority so that ^^^ looks like excuse making to me. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jun 19, 2024 6:26:30 GMT
Well to be fair to them it is the only deal that could get through Parliament - every other option was rejected. Even though the Tories had a majority in parliament? The Tories were like every other Party in Parliament - they consisted of a majority of MP's who wanted to remain in the EU and would rather fight to ignore the referendum than find a good leaving deal. FFS even the LibDems voted against remaining in the Single Market - that is how bonkers Parliament was at the time. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jun 19, 2024 6:28:02 GMT
The main two problems are we are a signatory to the 1951 UN refugee convention and a member of the ECHR. The Cons are split, where you have half of them in the One Nation Conservatives and the rest who want stronger measures. In other words they are blackmailed by this group and can't do what is necessary to make the whole thing legal. So it kind of hangs in limbo. If we got out of these two agreements we could simply ship the lot back to where they came from. If the British Public were ever stupid enough grant a mandate to any government intent on abandoning the ECHR it would be the worst day in this country's history. Worker's Rights - Gone The ECHR is what ensures workers have a right to pay, and not be treated as slaves. The ECHR is what ensures workers have a right to breaks, and annual leave. The ECHR is what ensures workers have the right to set standards of safety within the workplace. Abandoning the ECHR would see the UK workforce in a race to the bottom with the likes of China etc. Women's Rights - Gone The only people to benefit from us abandoning the ECHR would be the Corporate-Fascists the Conservatives already serve. All The Best Bullshit, Nulla.
The HRA didn't come into force until 2000 and, as someone who started work long before then, I can say that we had pretty much all of that before.
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Post by andrewbrown on Jun 19, 2024 6:35:56 GMT
The Tories were like every other Party in Parliament - they consisted of a majority of MP's who wanted to remain in the EU and would rather fight to ignore the referendum than find a good leaving deal. Why do you believe that was? |
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