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Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 19, 2024 1:19:27 GMT
A coalition of EU member states, led by the Czech and Italian Prime Ministers, is demanding the right to implement Rwanda-style deportation schemes. The group, comprising 19 nations, is urging Brussels to authorise the transfer of migration procedures outside the bloc's territory. How fascinating.
It was only a few years ago remainders said if we leave the EU we would no longer be a leading voice in Europe. This is the thing. If the scheme is so violently opposed by all and sundry it means it is one of those schemes that is likely to work.
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Post by ProVeritas on May 19, 2024 1:25:17 GMT
Correct. He is a minority opinion. That's how it works. That isn't democracy. That is force majeure. Well, two things. 1) Force Majeure is "an act of god" that no party can be held accountable for. 2) Having enough support to carry a majority is EXACTLY how Democracy works. All The Best
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 19, 2024 1:29:31 GMT
And to inject some reality into this Daily Mail article Firstly, Geert Wilders and his party won 37 of the 150 seats in the Dutch Parliament, and 23% of the popular vote. Secondly, he is so disliked by virtualy all the other political parties that part of the coalition agreement is that he cannot be Prime Minister. Thirdly, two of the coalition partners were extremely reluctant to go into coalition with Wilders, because they will not go along with his proposed breaking of the law ( European law ). and lastly, the second largest of his coalition partners ( The Peoples Party For Freedom & Democracy ) with 24 seats, is VERY Pro-Europe. I will predict what is going to happen - The coalition will ask for an opt-out of European legislation, the EU will say that no member state can opt out of legislation, and it will then be up to Wilders to decide whether to accept the decision or put forward a proposal to the Dutch Parliament to over-rule the EU, in which case the coalition would fall apart. One more thing. The other day it said in the Times that Rishi and team could only get 20 seats filled on the first flight. Every other one they had booked has been having a lawyer gum it up with legal delaying tactics. All the frustrated Europeans at least see Blighty give it a good shot, only to find they are tied up in law, of which most comes from the ECHR. The lawyers might have won the battle but the war is essentially PR and what the public think. It does not look very much like cricket. The EU can not cross the bulk of the public. Not with the French in the EU.
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ginnyg2
Full Member
Don't blame me - I voted for someone else.
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Post by ginnyg2 on May 19, 2024 7:15:31 GMT
That isn't democracy. That is force majeure. Well, two things. 1) Force Majeure is "an act of god" that no party can be held accountable for. 2) Having enough support to carry a majority is EXACTLY how Democracy works. All The Best That's only one definition. Another one is "irresistible compulsion or superior strength." Which is the one I am using in this context.
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Post by sandypine on May 19, 2024 7:28:52 GMT
That isn't democracy. That is force majeure. Well, two things. 1) Force Majeure is "an act of god" that no party can be held accountable for. 2) Having enough support to carry a majority is EXACTLY how Democracy works. All The Best Not quite, having the right to be heard, to offer alternative views, to debate the pros and cons of any planned action is part and parcel of lending support to any majority.
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Post by andrewbrown on May 19, 2024 8:10:44 GMT
Well, two things. 1) Force Majeure is "an act of god" that no party can be held accountable for. 2) Having enough support to carry a majority is EXACTLY how Democracy works. All The Best That's only one definition. Another one is "irresistible compulsion or superior strength." Which is the one I am using in this context. Like being outvoted you mean?
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ginnyg2
Full Member
Don't blame me - I voted for someone else.
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Post by ginnyg2 on May 19, 2024 9:34:11 GMT
That's only one definition. Another one is "irresistible compulsion or superior strength." Which is the one I am using in this context. Like being outvoted you mean? Like a mob ganging up on somebody? Yeah that's right!
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Post by andrewbrown on May 19, 2024 9:55:09 GMT
Like being outvoted you mean? Like a mob ganging up on somebody? Yeah that's right! Is that how you see being outvoted in a democracy?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2024 10:01:08 GMT
Like a mob ganging up on somebody? Yeah that's right! Is that how you see being outvoted in a democracy? Depends on the democracy. Pakistan's democracy is so corrupt and widespread that it just isn't functional. This model has been used in areas of London.
As you can see, under this beloved tribal politics it's actually embraced. I don't expect London will ever be a real democracy again. Corruption, despotism, fanaticism, violence and intimidation is what wins in that area today. Right and wrong doesn't matter, it's all about groups fighting for dominance at any cost.
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Post by witchfinder on May 19, 2024 11:50:14 GMT
And to inject some reality into this Daily Mail article Firstly, Geert Wilders and his party won 37 of the 150 seats in the Dutch Parliament, and 23% of the popular vote. Secondly, he is so disliked by virtualy all the other political parties that part of the coalition agreement is that he cannot be Prime Minister. Thirdly, two of the coalition partners were extremely reluctant to go into coalition with Wilders, because they will not go along with his proposed breaking of the law ( European law ). and lastly, the second largest of his coalition partners ( The Peoples Party For Freedom & Democracy ) with 24 seats, is VERY Pro-Europe. I will predict what is going to happen - The coalition will ask for an opt-out of European legislation, the EU will say that no member state can opt out of legislation, and it will then be up to Wilders to decide whether to accept the decision or put forward a proposal to the Dutch Parliament to over-rule the EU, in which case the coalition would fall apart. One more thing. The other day it said in the Times that Rishi and team could only get 20 seats filled on the first flight. Every other one they had booked has been having a lawyer gum it up with legal delaying tactics. All the frustrated Europeans at least see Blighty give it a good shot, only to find they are tied up in law, of which most comes from the ECHR. The lawyers might have won the battle but the war is essentially PR and what the public think. It does not look very much like cricket. The EU can not cross the bulk of the public. Not with the French in the EU. For the benefit of any poster who may not understand, the ECHR ( European Convention of Human Rights ) has little to do with the European Union, but is a convention of The European Council, separate to the EU. Whenever you actually get down to the "nitty gritty" or the "bottom line" with any of the paragraphs of the Convention, it all makes good sense, and was carefully thought out to provide water tight protections to our rights. The criteria for what is, and what is not a "Safe Country" when it comes Justice, imprisonment and fair treatment all makes perfectly good sense. In the past we have not been able to send Islamist terror suspects to Saudi Arabia, because the ECHR stipulates that a criminal suspect could be tortured in Saudi Arabia, and to me it makes good sense, not only for Islamist terror suspects, but it could one day be a British man suspected of consuming alcohol, or of a female not covering herself up. Because of the ECHR, we would not be able to do what the Americans did ... lock suspects up without trial indefinately as in Guantanamo Bay, and rightly so. Because of the ECHR, we are all protected, none of us can be deported or extradited to North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia or anywhere deemed to have a dodgy justice system, or where people can be tortured. Because of the ECHR a woman cannot be sent to Afghanistan or Iran for breaking so called "modesty rules" Because of the ECHR no gay man can be extradited to Uganda for a crime The ECHR is the worlds Benchmark, and thankfully there is little or no prospect of the UK opting out of the ECHR, of which we were instrumental in setting up in the first place. As the French would say "Liberty - Equality - Fraternity"
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Post by ProVeritas on May 19, 2024 12:10:46 GMT
One more thing. The other day it said in the Times that Rishi and team could only get 20 seats filled on the first flight. Every other one they had booked has been having a lawyer gum it up with legal delaying tactics. All the frustrated Europeans at least see Blighty give it a good shot, only to find they are tied up in law, of which most comes from the ECHR. The lawyers might have won the battle but the war is essentially PR and what the public think. It does not look very much like cricket. The EU can not cross the bulk of the public. Not with the French in the EU. For the benefit of any poster who may not understand, the ECHR ( European Convention of Human Rights ) has little to do with the European Union, but is a convention of The European Council, separate to the EU. Whenever you actually get down to the "nitty gritty" or the "bottom line" with any of the paragraphs of the Convention, it all makes good sense, and was carefully thought out to provide water tight protections to our rights. The criteria for what is, and what is not a "Safe Country" when it comes Justice, imprisonment and fair treatment all makes perfectly good sense. In the past we have not been able to send Islamist terror suspects to Saudi Arabia, because the ECHR stipulates that a criminal suspect could be tortured in Saudi Arabia, and to me it makes good sense, not only for Islamist terror suspects, but it could one day be a British man suspected of consuming alcohol, or of a female not covering herself up. Because of the ECHR, we would not be able to do what the Americans did ... lock suspects up without trial indefinately as in Guantanamo Bay, and rightly so. Because of the ECHR, we are all protected, none of us can be deported or extradited to North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia or anywhere deemed to have a dodgy justice system, or where people can be tortured. Because of the ECHR a woman cannot be sent to Afghanistan or Iran for breaking so called "modesty rules" Because of the ECHR no gay man can be extradited to Uganda for a crime The ECHR is the worlds Benchmark, and thankfully there is little or no prospect of the UK opting out of the ECHR, of which we were instrumental in setting up in the first place. As the French would say "Liberty - Equality - Fraternity" To all those of a certain political persuasion who, because the ECHR has European as the first word, go into apoplectic fits of faux outrage just point out that their oft revered hero, Winston Churchill, was instrumental in creating, crafting, and implementing the ECHR. Caught on the horns of that dilemma we can hope, against hope, that it might shock them into some semblance of reasoned thinking... ...kind of like a defibrillator shocks the heart back into a proper rhythm. All The Best
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Post by ProVeritas on May 19, 2024 12:19:11 GMT
Is that how you see being outvoted in a democracy? Depends on the democracy. Pakistan's democracy is so corrupt and widespread that it just isn't functional. This model has been used in areas of London.
You are aware I hope that Bangladesh is NOT the same country as Pakistan. So while the link you provide shows that there were significant and illegal irregularities surrounding Rahman's 2014 overturned electoral win, there is no evidence that the exact same practises were used in Pakistan, nor that is is any causal or ideological link between the actual crimes in Tower Hamlets and the, only alleged so far, crimes in Pakistan. Of course the real fly in the ointment for your argument is that Rahman's 2014 win being overturned shows very much that our Democracy is functional, thereby utterly destroying your own argument. All The Best
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ginnyg2
Full Member
Don't blame me - I voted for someone else.
Posts: 415
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Post by ginnyg2 on May 19, 2024 12:49:10 GMT
Like a mob ganging up on somebody? Yeah that's right! Is that how you see being outvoted in a democracy? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz For Christ's sake read the ****ing article. It had nothing to do with voting. Wilders was told "You can join our gang and these are the conditions".
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Post by Red Rackham on May 19, 2024 12:49:49 GMT
I see shithouse Sunak has taken at least 50 migrants back from Ireland, when are we going to get a leader with backbone FFS, and to think he could be replaced with another spineless shithouse. So if a migrant moves from country A to country B, should country A be forced to accept them back? Clearly the EU and France say no, if country A is an EU state. The EU French and Irish position on this is laughable. For years illegals have poured into the UK from the EU in their hundreds of thousands, the EU French and Irish say the British government cannot send them back. But as soon as illegals cross from Northern Ireland to Ireland, the EU France and Ireland insist British government should take them back! Double standards? LOL. The EU's position on this is a complete joke and the world can see it. Unfortunately for the UK we have weak appeasing politicians who, as far as the EU are concerned, are about to get even weaker. God help us.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2024 13:08:27 GMT
Depends on the democracy. Pakistan's democracy is so corrupt and widespread that it just isn't functional. This model has been used in areas of London.
You are aware I hope that Bangladesh is NOT the same country as Pakistan. So while the link you provide shows that there were significant and illegal irregularities surrounding Rahman's 2014 overturned electoral win, there is no evidence that the exact same practises were used in Pakistan, nor that is is any causal or ideological link between the actual crimes in Tower Hamlets and the, only alleged so far, crimes in Pakistan. Of course the real fly in the ointment for your argument is that Rahman's 2014 win being overturned shows very much that our Democracy is functional, thereby utterly destroying your own argument. All The Best I don't recall claiming they were. The rest of your post says nothing except that he got caught. I fail to see how that destroys my argument, but then again you do post a lot of shit on here.
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