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Post by Orac on Nov 25, 2022 13:57:14 GMT
Well, here we are. The truth has been revealed at last. A truth has been revealed. there are others. One thing is for reasonably sure, The UK people were never going to be able to elect a government who would control UK immigration, when a large fraction of the needed discretion had been 'wafted up' out of UK government control. |
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Post by Steve on Nov 25, 2022 14:01:12 GMT
The UK population is never noted for their deeply thought through decision making. Right now they by and large want low taxes, a fully staffed NHS and no immigrants. Well best of luck to anyone thinking of making all three of those fit.
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 25, 2022 14:31:02 GMT
A truth has been revealed. there are others. One thing is for reasonably sure, The UK people were never going to be able to elect a government who would control UK immigration, when a large fraction of the needed discretion had been 'wafted up' out of UK government control. By 'wafting up' I presume you refer to freedom of movement within the EU, and the legend that the UK government had no choice in the matter, having to accept for residence all and sundry whether they qualified for treaty rights or not. The numbers that actually turned up is still a matter of statistical debate (somewhere between 4 and 6 million), but it might be worthwhile pointing out that most other member states did not experience the same sort of influx as the UK.
According to Eurostat, the number of EU nationals living in another member state in 2021 was 13.7 million, or 3.1% of a total population of 447 million.
On the other hand there were 10 million non-EU citizens resident in the EU in 2021, 2.2% of the population, for a total foreigner population of 23.7 million or 5.3%. According to the last census there were 10 million resident foreigners in England and Wales, 16.8% of the population per the last census, or more than three times the proportion in the EU.
The 'wafting up' doesn't appear to have been an EU-wide phenomenon.
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Post by Red Rackham on Nov 25, 2022 14:55:41 GMT
The UK population is never noted for their deeply thought through decision making. Pompous git. That's something a remainiac like Anna Soubry would say. |
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Post by Bentley on Nov 25, 2022 15:04:47 GMT
Imo the problem is that we can’t control our borders . That in itself should be huge concern. As for people seeking work . I saw conditions and pay stagnate because so many young itinerant foreigners were willing to work in dangerous conditions and companies flout Labour and safety laws . Not only that but it starved those countries of their young people . We had skilled people from Lithuania and other East European countries working at low skilled jobs in the UK because the pay was several times more than their previously skilled jobs. We could control our borders but for some unknown reason they don't want to, it's beyond lunacy watching these dinghy's with hundreds of migrants arriving daily, the UK must be a laughing stock, imagine seeing those scenes in Australia, well no, you wouldn't witness those scenes in Australia, it just wouldn't happen. Imo we don’t have as much leverage regarding France as we might think . Also I suspect that this government has no real interest in controlling migrants . They are ( as they say) pissing on us and telling us that it’s raining. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Nov 25, 2022 15:07:43 GMT
We could control our borders but for some unknown reason they don't want to, it's beyond lunacy watching these dinghy's with hundreds of migrants arriving daily, the UK must be a laughing stock, imagine seeing those scenes in Australia, well no, you wouldn't witness those scenes in Australia, it just wouldn't happen. Imo we don’t have as much leverage regarding France as we might think . Also I suspect that this government has no real interest in controlling migrants . They are ( as they say) pissing on us and telling us that it’s raining. For some reason this government, well not just this government all UK political parties are shit scared of Macron, he's a little dictator who has the UK jumping threw hoops, this government are petrified of picking up these illegal migrants and escorting them back to French shores, which I can assure you that is exactly what Macron would do if it was the other way round. |
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Post by Bentley on Nov 25, 2022 15:12:55 GMT
Imo we don’t have as much leverage regarding France as we might think . Also I suspect that this government has no real interest in controlling migrants . They are ( as they say) pissing on us and telling us that it’s raining. For some reason this government, well not just this government all UK political parties are shit scared of Macron, he's a little dictator who has the UK jumping threw hoops, this government are petrified of picking up these illegal migrants and escorting them back to French shores, which I can assure you that is exactly what Macron would do if it was the other way round. Imo it’s not Macron that they are scared of. Realistically the UK would have to hire appropriately trained people willing to catch the boats and tow them back to France . The French could try to block them , there could be casualties and deaths involved . It could be a legal nightmare and unworkable at the same time . |
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Post by patman post on Nov 25, 2022 15:14:15 GMT
The UK population is never noted for their deeply thought through decision making. Pompous git. That's something a remainiac like Anna Soubry would say. As was repeatedly pointed out to party workers during a successful campaign in the US: "It's the economy stupid. Change versus more of the same. Don't forget healthcare".
I doubt the bulk of voters in the UK concern themselves with much more than simple aspects of those three items...
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Post by Red Rackham on Nov 25, 2022 15:26:34 GMT
Pompous git. That's something a remainiac like Anna Soubry would say. As was repeatedly pointed out to party workers during a successful campaign in the US: "It's the economy stupid. Change versus more of the same. Don't forget healthcare".
I doubt the bulk of voters in the UK concern themselves with much more than simple aspects of those three items...
The majority of people voted for Brexit because they were concerned about immigration. Seven years later we have record immigration. It seems to me it doesn't matter what the electorate are concerned about. Ultimately, they will be ignored. |
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Post by Orac on Nov 25, 2022 15:40:24 GMT
Dan,
I have attempted to discuss this issue with you before, but each time i find (from my point of view) you appear to slide off the core of the argument into a morass of statistics with doubtful meaning. Comparing the UK to the whole of the EU is not a like to like comparison. Many countries currently in the EU were basket-cases in very living memory and are still 'recovering'? and so do not act as any kind of draw for economic migration.
Here is a statistic regarding France - Eurostat estimated the foreign-born population to be 9.1 million, corresponding to 14.1% of the French population.
I post this statistic with a heavy heart. knowing this will lead to a further discussion about the meaning of a number.
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Post by patman post on Nov 25, 2022 15:54:20 GMT
As was repeatedly pointed out to party workers during a successful campaign in the US: "It's the economy stupid. Change versus more of the same. Don't forget healthcare".
I doubt the bulk of voters in the UK concern themselves with much more than simple aspects of those three items...
Seven years later we have record immigration. It seems to me it doesn't matter what the electorate are concerned about. Ultimately, they will be ignored. Doesn't that illustrate the low level of knowledge of voters about what they say concerns them?
Anyone bothering to look at the figures for themselves should have realised that non-EU immigration was never going to be stopped by leaving the EU... |
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Post by Red Rackham on Nov 25, 2022 15:58:47 GMT
The majority of people voted for Brexit because they were concerned about immigration. Seven years later we have record immigration. It seems to me it doesn't matter what the electorate are concerned about. Ultimately, they will be ignored. Doesn't that illustrate the low level of knowledge of voters about what they say concerns them?
Anyone bothering to look at the figures for themselves should have realised that non-EU immigration was never going to be stopped by leaving the EU... Would you say that was the fault of the electorate, or politicians? |
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Post by patman post on Nov 25, 2022 16:10:31 GMT
Both. Immigration figures have been published and commented upon for as long as I can remember, as were the number of EU workers arriving in the UK. Politicians, like advocates, present the info for their side. And voters absorb the predigested slogans — Leavers mainly worried about immigration, while for Remainers, damage to the economy was the main concern...
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Post by Orac on Nov 25, 2022 16:23:45 GMT
Anyone bothering to look at the figures for themselves should have realised that non-EU immigration was never going to be stopped by leaving the EU... I think it was reasonable to assume that non eu immigration could / would be limited, as this immigration is under the jurisdiction of the UK government and elected governments had placed such assurances in their manifestos. |
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Post by Steve on Nov 25, 2022 23:57:39 GMT
But it never was was it. Because government after government of all ilks did what the electorate asked it to do: "just fix our current problems now, someone else can worry about the consequences".
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