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Post by ProVeritas on May 12, 2024 11:55:53 GMT
But is not in any way at all, especially legally, compelled to do so, and could refuse to do so and there would be NOTHING Parliament could do about it. To look at where the REAL power is ask these two questions: Can Parliament compel the Monarch? Can the Monarch compel Parliament? In a Democracy the answer to the first would be YES, and the answer to the second would be NO. If that were the case I would be 100% in agreement with everyone who has so far been wrong in this thread. In reality the answer to the first is NO, and and answer to the second in YES. That is NOT Democracy. All The Best but V-Dem an institute that studies and reports on democracies the world over classifies the UK as a liberal democracy. The UK is even ranked as a liberal democracy in V-Dem's index coming in the top 20% to 10% democratic countries in the world. www.v-dem.net/documents/43/v-dem_dr2024_lowres.pdfThen V-Dem are FACTUALLY Wrong. V-Dem is the ONLY source I can find that claims we are a Liberal Democracy. The UK Government, the CIA World Factbook, Wikipedia, and just about informed Political Commentator in the English speaking world recognises that the UK is a Parliamentary Constitutional MONARCHY. All The Best
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Post by see2 on May 12, 2024 16:54:42 GMT
Where the Monarchy just rubber stamps the changes made by the democratically elected Parliament. See how silly your refusal to recognise reality is now? But is not in any way at all, especially legally, compelled to do so, and could refuse to do so and there would be NOTHING Parliament could do about it. To look at where the REAL power is ask these two questions: Can Parliament compel the Monarch? Can the Monarch compel Parliament? In a Democracy the answer to the first would be YES, and the answer to the second would be NO. If that were the case I would be 100% in agreement with everyone who has so far been wrong in this thread. In reality the answer to the first is NO, and and answer to the second in YES. That is NOT Democracy. All The Best In reality wasn't it something like 1709 the last time a Monarch refused to comply? If a Monarch today began taking political decisions that parliament apposed, there would likely be another civil war.
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Post by ProVeritas on May 12, 2024 17:07:28 GMT
But is not in any way at all, especially legally, compelled to do so, and could refuse to do so and there would be NOTHING Parliament could do about it. To look at where the REAL power is ask these two questions: Can Parliament compel the Monarch? Can the Monarch compel Parliament? In a Democracy the answer to the first would be YES, and the answer to the second would be NO. If that were the case I would be 100% in agreement with everyone who has so far been wrong in this thread. In reality the answer to the first is NO, and and answer to the second in YES. That is NOT Democracy. All The Best In reality wasn't it something like 1709 the last time a Monarch refused to comply? Yes, in reality, it was 1708. Also, in reality, the Monarch is free to do so again at any time, and also, in reality, there is no legal process Parliament could use to prevent it or overturn it. All along I have ONLY been discussing the REALITY of the situation. All The best
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Post by Orac on May 12, 2024 17:19:44 GMT
But is not in any way at all, especially legally, compelled to do so, and could refuse to do so and there would be NOTHING Parliament could do about it. To look at where the REAL power is ask these two questions: Can Parliament compel the Monarch? Can the Monarch compel Parliament? In a Democracy the answer to the first would be YES, and the answer to the second would be NO. If that were the case I would be 100% in agreement with everyone who has so far been wrong in this thread. In reality the answer to the first is NO, and and answer to the second in YES. That is NOT Democracy. All The Best If a Monarch today began taking political decisions that parliament apposed, there would likely be another civil war. In reality, neither would be able to do this without the backing of the people. It would be 'unprecedented', highlighted as a constitutional emergency and potentially cause massive to damage to anyone who attempted it.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2024 18:20:31 GMT
Democracy and the freedom of the press, are they worth fighting for? Well, our at best semi-democratic form of so-called democracy is barely worth fighting for. One of our legislative chambers seems to be occupied by people none of us vote for nor can vote out of office, and all too often there for services rendered - not to we the people but to particular politicians and parties. The whiff of corruption and buying positions in our legislature does kind of stink. And our other legislative chamber is elected by a hugely disproportionate system capable of delivering huge majorities with the votes of a minority of the electorate, whilst shutting out many strands of opinion and ensuring that for a majority of people voting is an utter waste of time. As for the so-called free press, all it ever has been is the freedom of people rich enough to own it telling us the news they want to tell us and what to think about it. The internet has a far wider plurality of opinion, but the drawback there is that it is full of utterly fake news. Which leads to the problem of people basing their opinions on things that are not true. And we are seeing all too clearly the dangers of that playing out in the USA. And it is far easier on the internet than in the older media for bad actors - political extremists, conspiracy theorists, religious nutcases, terrorist groups, overt hatemongers, potentially hostile states, etc - to put out untrue narratives, flooding people's heads with untrue so-called facts and in this way potentially subverting democracy - flawed as it already is - even more. The inherent problem with democracy - I have sadly concluded - is that a majority of most electorates are too lacking in political knowledge and/or intelligence to make sensible decisions about whom to vote for. And no, this is not about left or right, ill-informed, politically stupid people can vote both left, right and centre. I would say that everyone on a forum such as this is intelligent enough to think sensibly and vote based upon intelligent and informed thought processes, however much we may disagree with each other. But only a minority of the electorate is like us. Most of the rest are pig ignorant about politics, and no party has ever won an election without the support of at least part of this idiot bloc. I am deeply cynical but don't know what the solution is. Because clearly any alternative to democracy just about always ends up being even worse. So that leaves me to conclude that the only way of making democracy work better is to educate people in school about it much more. But getting that past an elite-owned media whose best interest lies in keeping the people stupid, the easier to manipulate them, would be a tough ask.
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Post by sandypine on May 12, 2024 18:27:29 GMT
If a Monarch today began taking political decisions that parliament apposed, there would likely be another civil war. In reality, neither would be able to do this without the backing of the people. It would be 'unprecedented', highlighted as a constitutional emergency and potentially cause massive to damage to anyone who attempted it. This keeps getting pointed out to PV but he seems incapable of digesting information beyond the Monarch he say no. We all know the Monarch can say no legally but then you have to always look at what happens after that. If we all sit back and say well that's that he may have a point but in reality that is not what will happen and because something else will happen that makes it a democracy.
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Post by dodgydave on May 12, 2024 18:52:02 GMT
Very strange argument for someone trying to make it. The central characteristics of capitalism include capital accumulation, competitive markets, price systems, private property, property rights recognition, voluntary exchange, and wage labor. Slavery has more to do with Communism than Capitalism. If you think slavery has more to do with Communism than Capitalism I suggest you understand neither to a sufficient degree to have a grown-up conversation on the subject. Capitalism is, fundamentally, about Profit. You increase Profit by reducing Costs. Wage-Labour is a significant Cost. Slave-Labour is a much lesser Cost. Oh, and Capitalism is not at all about Competition. Capitalism tends toward, and is designed to create Monopolies. Because Profit Margins are reduced by Competition. Profit Margins are increased by having a Monopoly. You've clearly read the sales pitch label on Capitalism, and have been duped by some of the nice taglines. You've also clearly never opened the box and dug deep to see what is actually in there. All The Best
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Post by dodgydave on May 12, 2024 19:13:44 GMT
Very strange argument for someone trying to make it. The central characteristics of capitalism include capital accumulation, competitive markets, price systems, private property, property rights recognition, voluntary exchange, and wage labor. Slavery has more to do with Communism than Capitalism. If you think slavery has more to do with Communism than Capitalism I suggest you understand neither to a sufficient degree to have a grown-up conversation on the subject. Capitalism is, fundamentally, about Profit. You increase Profit by reducing Costs. Wage-Labour is a significant Cost. Slave-Labour is a much lesser Cost. Oh, and Capitalism is not at all about Competition. Capitalism tends toward, and is designed to create Monopolies. Because Profit Margins are reduced by Competition. Profit Margins are increased by having a Monopoly. You've clearly read the sales pitch label on Capitalism, and have been duped by some of the nice taglines. You've also clearly never opened the box and dug deep to see what is actually in there. All The Best You talk like people are locked out of the system. The exact opposite is true, capitalism provides people with opportunities, and they can use those opportunities to make a good life for themselves. As for your monopoly point, what a load of rubbish. Capitalism is REGULATED by governments, who have anti-monopoly policies, and they have opened up state monopolies to competition... which has driven down prices for the consumer. Pray tell, what would you replace capitalism with?
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Post by ProVeritas on May 12, 2024 20:24:28 GMT
If you think slavery has more to do with Communism than Capitalism I suggest you understand neither to a sufficient degree to have a grown-up conversation on the subject. Capitalism is, fundamentally, about Profit. You increase Profit by reducing Costs. Wage-Labour is a significant Cost. Slave-Labour is a much lesser Cost. Oh, and Capitalism is not at all about Competition. Capitalism tends toward, and is designed to create Monopolies. Because Profit Margins are reduced by Competition. Profit Margins are increased by having a Monopoly. You've clearly read the sales pitch label on Capitalism, and have been duped by some of the nice taglines. You've also clearly never opened the box and dug deep to see what is actually in there. All The Best You talk like people are locked out of the system. The exact opposite is true, capitalism provides people with opportunities, and they can use those opportunities to make a good life for themselves. As for your monopoly point, what a load of rubbish. Capitalism is REGULATED by governments, who have anti-monopoly policies, and they have opened up state monopolies to competition... which has driven down prices for the consumer. Pray tell, what would you replace capitalism with? They wouldn't need anti-monopoly policies if Capitalism's natural tendency wasn't to create monopolies, would they? Its really not rocket science. As to state monopolies, this tends to mean state owned utility companies. More people now pay a greater percentage of their income on servicing utility bills than ever before. Utility bill increases have consistently outstripped both inflation and wage increases - not all of that revenue funds service level improvements (just look at the parlous state of the Water Industry) it funds unjustifiable share dividends and excessive executive remuneration packages. Heck, the water industry has taken on record levels of debt just to fund dividends and remuneration packages and stock-market gambling; revenue from bills has paid for all infrastructure improvements since privatisation. All The Best
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Post by dodgydave on May 12, 2024 21:12:26 GMT
You talk like people are locked out of the system. The exact opposite is true, capitalism provides people with opportunities, and they can use those opportunities to make a good life for themselves. As for your monopoly point, what a load of rubbish. Capitalism is REGULATED by governments, who have anti-monopoly policies, and they have opened up state monopolies to competition... which has driven down prices for the consumer. Pray tell, what would you replace capitalism with? They wouldn't need anti-monopoly policies if Capitalism's natural tendency wasn't to create monopolies, would they? Its really not rocket science. As to state monopolies, this tends to mean state owned utility companies. More people now pay a greater percentage of their income on servicing utility bills than ever before. Utility bill increases have consistently outstripped both inflation and wage increases - not all of that revenue funds service level improvements (just look at the parlous state of the Water Industry) it funds unjustifiable share dividends and excessive executive remuneration packages. Heck, the water industry has taken on record levels of debt just to fund dividends and remuneration packages and stock-market gambling; revenue from bills has paid for all infrastructure improvements since privatisation. All The Best Again, you keep pointing to a problem, yet offer so solution. Capitalism is regulated, so talking about it like it isn't is just pointless. What would you replace it with? Your water example is just dumb. On literally every metric England's water supply has improved. We invest more than anybody else in Europe (every year since privitisation). Leaks are down a quarter. Drinking water quality has improved... and we outperform both Scotland and Wales... were it is nationalised. You will of course mention the sewer problems. Tell us how re-nationalisation is going to magic the £600b needed to solve the sewer problem, and tell us how you will physically ever manage to get the work done considering the sheer scale of the problem? You literally highlighted the problem without realising. "More people now pay a greater percentage of their income on servicing utility bills than ever before." Here is an idea for you, British Rail, British Telecom, Electric Board, Gas Board, Water Board were all shite. Do you think that is because the bill price was political and not a reflection of the cost of service? Do think investment was so low because the utilities were way way down on the government's priorities and because there is no votes in them?
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Post by ProVeritas on May 13, 2024 6:59:17 GMT
They wouldn't need anti-monopoly policies if Capitalism's natural tendency wasn't to create monopolies, would they? Its really not rocket science. As to state monopolies, this tends to mean state owned utility companies. More people now pay a greater percentage of their income on servicing utility bills than ever before. Utility bill increases have consistently outstripped both inflation and wage increases - not all of that revenue funds service level improvements (just look at the parlous state of the Water Industry) it funds unjustifiable share dividends and excessive executive remuneration packages. Heck, the water industry has taken on record levels of debt just to fund dividends and remuneration packages and stock-market gambling; revenue from bills has paid for all infrastructure improvements since privatisation. All The Best Again, you keep pointing to a problem, yet offer so solution. Capitalism is regulated, so talking about it like it isn't is just pointless. What would you replace it with? Your water example is just dumb. On literally every metric England's water supply has improved. We invest more than anybody else in Europe (every year since privitisation). Leaks are down a quarter. Drinking water quality has improved... and we outperform both Scotland and Wales... were it is nationalised. You will of course mention the sewer problems. Tell us how re-nationalisation is going to magic the £600b needed to solve the sewer problem, and tell us how you will physically ever manage to get the work done considering the sheer scale of the problem? You literally highlighted the problem without realising. "More people now pay a greater percentage of their income on servicing utility bills than ever before." Here is an idea for you, British Rail, British Telecom, Electric Board, Gas Board, Water Board were all shite. Do you think that is because the bill price was political and not a reflection of the cost of service? Do think investment was so low because the utilities were way way down on the government's priorities and because there is no votes in them? If there was an easy solution to the many problems of Capitalism most countries would have adopted them by now. The real issue is that most countries aren't even looking for solutions, because they refuse to acknowledge the problems. They do so because once MPs leave office they want those cushy jobs at that top-end of the capitalist ladder, so don't want to rock the boat. Pointing out that how nationalised utilities were run 40 years ago was not great is no indication that how they are run under privatisation is much better,; in fact for nearly everyone in the lower 2 quintiles it is much worse. 90% of all the problems with Capitalism are to do with wealth distribution and the ever increasing wealth-gap. All The Best
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Post by Pacifico on May 13, 2024 7:46:15 GMT
It's not how nationalised utilities were run 40 years ago that matters it is how they are run today. Comparing the English (privatised) water system with the systems in Wales, NI and Scotland (that are not privatised) shows that whether the system is privatised or not makes very little difference good or bad.
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Post by see2 on May 13, 2024 8:46:38 GMT
If a Monarch today began taking political decisions that parliament apposed, there would likely be another civil war. In reality, neither would be able to do this without the backing of the people. It would be 'unprecedented', highlighted as a constitutional emergency and potentially cause massive to damage to anyone who attempted it. In reality it would be the very essence of civil war, likely to see people minded like yourself fighting against people minded like myself. The people have done it once and could do it again if necessary.
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Post by Orac on May 13, 2024 8:54:02 GMT
In reality, neither would be able to do this without the backing of the people. It would be 'unprecedented', highlighted as a constitutional emergency and potentially cause massive to damage to anyone who attempted it. In reality it would be the very essence of civil war, likely to see people minded like yourself fighting against people minded like myself. The people have done it once and could do it again if necessary. That prediction is pretty stark and definitive. I think it's likely that, if this ever happened it would commonly understood that the 'democratically elected' government had become dis empowered (ineffective) or it had gone badly off the rails. Perhaps if the Germany's aristocracy had more institutional power, something could have been done to stop Adolf Hitler?
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Post by see2 on May 13, 2024 9:02:43 GMT
Democracy and the freedom of the press, are they worth fighting for? Well, our at best semi-democratic form of so-called democracy is barely worth fighting for.
One of our legislative chambers seems to be occupied by people none of us vote for nor can vote out of office, and all too often there for services rendered - not to we the people but to particular politicians and parties. The whiff of corruption and buying positions in our legislature does kind of stink.And our other legislative chamber is elected by a hugely disproportionate system capable of delivering huge majorities with the votes of a minority of the electorate, whilst shutting out many strands of opinion and ensuring that for a majority of people voting is an utter waste of time. As for the so-called free press, all it ever has been is the freedom of people rich enough to own it telling us the news they want to tell us and what to think about it. The internet has a far wider plurality of opinion, but the drawback there is that it is full of utterly fake news. Which leads to the problem of people basing their opinions on things that are not true. And we are seeing all too clearly the dangers of that playing out in the USA. And it is far easier on the internet than in the older media for bad actors - political extremists, conspiracy theorists, religious nutcases, terrorist groups, overt hatemongers, potentially hostile states, etc - to put out untrue narratives, flooding people's heads with untrue so-called facts and in this way potentially subverting democracy - flawed as it already is - even more. The inherent problem with democracy - I have sadly concluded - is that a majority of most electorates are too lacking in political knowledge and/or intelligence to make sensible decisions about whom to vote for. And no, this is not about left or right, ill-informed, politically stupid people can vote both left, right and centre. I would say that everyone on a forum such as this is intelligent enough to think sensibly and vote based upon intelligent and informed thought processes, however much we may disagree with each other. But only a minority of the electorate is like us. Most of the rest are pig ignorant about politics, and no party has ever won an election without the support of at least part of this idiot bloc. I am deeply cynical but don't know what the solution is. Because clearly any alternative to democracy just about always ends up being even worse. So that leaves me to conclude that the only way of making democracy work better is to educate people in school about it much more. But getting that past an elite-owned media whose best interest lies in keeping the people stupid, the easier to manipulate them, would be a tough ask. I largely agree with your post. IMO, the problem is not democracy per se, it is, as you indicate, ill informed people that are the problem and I put that down to the extreme bias in various forms of the media.
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