|
|
Post by happyhornet on Apr 7, 2024 12:53:54 GMT
Have you considered that autism and ADHD isn't more prevalent today it just seems that way because we have a better understanding of it and more people are being diagnosed and there is less social stigma attached to it so people are more comfortable openly discussing it? My eldest has had some of the special treatment you bemoan and as a result he is now performing academically at the expected standard of a kid his age across all subjects. Neurodivergent kids attending mainstream school also helps them to develop social skills and strategies which will help their employment prospects in adult life which benefits society as a whole. I'd also add that autistic adults make allowances for negative neurotypical behavioural traits and expend huge amounts of emotional and physical energy every day to mask for the benefit of neurotypical people, to make them more comfortable. I don't think that asking for a bit of reciprocation is hugely unreasonable. Yeah, so when a neurodivergent child starts smashing up a classroom because one of his/her peers looked at him the wrong way, the educational rights of the 26 other kids and the teacher go out the window. This is one of the reasons many teachers are leaving the profession. "Inclusion" comes at everyone else's expense. My kids have never smashed up a classroom. They have been physically attacked by neurotypical kids at school before. I wouldn't dream of using that as a justification for denying all neurotypical kids mainstream education. |
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Apr 7, 2024 12:54:34 GMT
What you say is implausible was exactly how it was and still is today. Someone say knows someone who is autistic and is a decent person and befriends an autistic person feels they would suffer social black marks for doing so from other people. They won't include them in a group for fear they too might be excluded from the group. For example, in the world of work someone has a job, meets an autistic person who is extremely skilful and they know their firm needs such a person and they could get them a job, but this will never happen because by doing that it would jeopardise their own employment security. That's the insipid evil you get in society that not only do people like to punish autistic people but punish the ones who help them! Obviously the autistic person knows full well what is going on because it happens every time, and it become a point where they say fuck you. I'm going to get that piece of my life back denied to me. Everyone has money except the autistic person. This is where shit happens and the prisons are full of them. They are the ones who have just had all they can take and treated so shit that prison is no worse, so they just don't give a fuck and hate normal people, but those in the same boat will be best of friends.
That's how crazy our people are. They just don't know they are such cunts and then cry when they get their comeuppance. There was one guy I met like that who has managed in a car to smash up at least 20 police cars. It's almost the stuff of Hollywood (Blues Brothers car chase) but that's what it means to not give a fuck literally. All coppers are fair game. I think there was one in a council car park as well in the papers where he took a dislike to councillors and smashed every one of their cars up. How liberating.
Based on my own observations one of the negative neurotypical behaviour traits I mentioned earlier appears to be difficulty in accepting difference. I'm not saying that there are no intolerant autistic people, of course there are, there's even an Asperger's supremacist movement FFS. But overall I have found that autistic people tend to accept naturally occurring differences in people with little or no fuss. I'd like to see some research into this but doubt it will ever happen. To give a real life example of how life can just serve a bad hand to one person who is almost the same as the other, I was listening to this lecture given by an Australian professor of psychology who was himself autistic and so was his brother. He turned into a professor and his brother into an armed robber. They would have had the same upbringing and the same opportunities as seen in a superficial way, but for one they recognised his talent and one acceptance led to the next, and for the other the likely thing was one rejection led to another rejection based on the first rejection until the situation was hopeless. What do you do if you have tried everything and everyone knocks you back? You end up hating everyone, except for those that you hate hate, as per your enemy's enemy is your friend. The more stringent the system of control the worse this effect becomes. In a more flexible system someone can try different options. If one employer won't employ them they can go to one that will, until you make every employment criteria align in all firms to expect to achieve equality. |
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Apr 7, 2024 12:59:21 GMT
Have you considered that autism and ADHD isn't more prevalent today it just seems that way because we have a better understanding of it and more people are being diagnosed and there is less social stigma attached to it so people are more comfortable openly discussing it? My eldest has had some of the special treatment you bemoan and as a result he is now performing academically at the expected standard of a kid his age across all subjects. Neurodivergent kids attending mainstream school also helps them to develop social skills and strategies which will help their employment prospects in adult life which benefits society as a whole. I'd also add that autistic adults make allowances for negative neurotypical behavioural traits and expend huge amounts of emotional and physical energy every day to mask for the benefit of neurotypical people, to make them more comfortable. I don't think that asking for a bit of reciprocation is hugely unreasonable. Yeah, so when a neurodivergent child starts smashing up a classroom because one of his/her peers looked at him the wrong way, the educational rights of the 26 other kids and the teacher go out the window. This is one of the reasons many teachers are leaving the profession. "Inclusion" comes at everyone else's expense. Indeed. We had an ‘oddball’ pupil that stuck a compass point in another kids face after he teased him at my old school ( after it turned comprehensive). His older brother was a bit vicious too. |
|
|
|
Post by buccaneer on Apr 7, 2024 13:00:22 GMT
Yeah, so when a neurodivergent child starts smashing up a classroom because one of his/her peers looked at him the wrong way, the educational rights of the 26 other kids and the teacher go out the window. This is one of the reasons many teachers are leaving the profession. "Inclusion" comes at everyone else's expense. My kids have never smashed up a classroom. They have been physically attacked by neurotypical kids at school before. I wouldn't dream of using that as a justification for denying all neurotypical kids mainstream education. Well, it does happen and burdening 26 other young children and a teacher with this daily behaviour and special adjustments means teaching and learning is not optimised. Like I said, "inclusion" comes at everyone else's expense. |
|
|
|
Post by happyhornet on Apr 7, 2024 13:02:53 GMT
My kids have never smashed up a classroom. They have been physically attacked by neurotypical kids at school before. I wouldn't dream of using that as a justification for denying all neurotypical kids mainstream education. Well, it does happen and burdening 26 other young children and a teacher with this daily behaviour and special adjustments means teaching and learning is not optimised. Like I said, "inclusion" comes at everyone else's expense. So are you saying that my kids should be denied mainstream education because of anecdotal behaviour of other kids? I don't think that anyone is arguing that a child that is spectacularly and violently disruptive should be automatically entitled to mainstream education. Of course some kids cannot be accomadated, but not all neurodivergent kids are violent and disruptive and not all violent and disruptive kids are neurodivergent. |
|
|
|
Post by buccaneer on Apr 7, 2024 13:12:28 GMT
Well, it does happen and burdening 26 other young children and a teacher with this daily behaviour and special adjustments means teaching and learning is not optimised. Like I said, "inclusion" comes at everyone else's expense. So are you saying that my kids should be denied mainstream education because of anecdotal behaviour of other kids? I don't think that anyone is arguing that a child that is spectacularly and violently disruptive should be automatically entitled to mainstream education. Of course some kids cannot be accomadated, but not all neurodivergent kids are violent and disruptive and not all violent and disruptive kids are neurodivergent.I know. Neurotypical kids will get consequences for their behaviour. Neurodivergent kids will be asked about their feelings and taken away for a little chat or a board game. Plus, I don't think you appreciate how difficult and draining it is to be accountable for the learning of children in a classroom. It can be akin to herding cats. Throw in three, four or five neurodivergent kids on top of that, and ones who aren't medicated, this makes teaching feel like hell. It's not fair on the teacher's wellbeing and mental health and it isn't fair on the other children who all have a right to come to school to learn and feel safe. |
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Apr 7, 2024 13:20:03 GMT
My kids have never smashed up a classroom. They have been physically attacked by neurotypical kids at school before. I wouldn't dream of using that as a justification for denying all neurotypical kids mainstream education. Well, it does happen and burdening 26 other young children and a teacher with this daily behaviour and special adjustments means teaching and learning is not optimised. Like I said, "inclusion" comes at everyone else's expense. This is it. I mean autism is a double-edged sword. We need these people, no doubt about that, but if you want to develop an autistic child so they reach their full potential you will need an entirely different kind of school. The whole school system is optimised for normal and de-optimised for the autistic and the autistic is probably 1 in 150 kids. It depends on the point you draw the line, but in my reckoning out of a year of 300 you will get about one or two. They do stand out if you know what you are looking for. You may find the biography of Dirac very interesting. He was an extreme case. He ranks as one of the most important physics researchers of the 20th century and an absolute genius, but the personal tales are a giggle. The guy was super weird.
|
|
|
|
Post by happyhornet on Apr 7, 2024 13:24:42 GMT
So are you saying that my kids should be denied mainstream education because of anecdotal behaviour of other kids? I don't think that anyone is arguing that a child that is spectacularly and violently disruptive should be automatically entitled to mainstream education. Of course some kids cannot be accomadated, but not all neurodivergent kids are violent and disruptive and not all violent and disruptive kids are neurodivergent.I know. Neurotypical kids will get consequences for their behaviour. Neurodivergent kids will be asked about their feelings and taken away for a little chat or a board game. Plus, I don't think you appreciate how difficult and draining it is to be accountable for the learning children in a classroom. It can be akin to herding cats. Throw in three, four or five neurodivergent kids on top of that, and ones who aren't medicated, this makes teaching fell like hell. It's not fair on the teacher's wellbeing and mental health and it isn't fair on the other children who all have a right to come to school to learn and feel safe. You honestly think that as an autism parent I've never spoken to a teacher about teaching neurodivergent kids? That I'm completely ignorant on the subject? Really? If my kids step out of line they are dealt with same as any other kid would be. Again nobody is saying that chronically disruptive kids should be allowed mainstream education. I'm saying that neurodivergent kids shouldn't be automatically excluded from mainstream education because of the worst examples of neurodivergent kids just as neurotypical kids shouldn't be. I've been a parent volunteer on my kids school trips before, on one of them two kids, both neurotypical, had a full on punch up, blood was drawn. What would you say if I told you that on the basis of that your kids and grandkids shouldn't be allowed mainstream education? |
|
|
|
Post by ratcliff on Apr 7, 2024 13:37:18 GMT
So are you saying that my kids should be denied mainstream education because of anecdotal behaviour of other kids? I don't think that anyone is arguing that a child that is spectacularly and violently disruptive should be automatically entitled to mainstream education. Of course some kids cannot be accomadated, but not all neurodivergent kids are violent and disruptive and not all violent and disruptive kids are neurodivergent.I know. Neurotypical kids will get consequences for their behaviour. Neurodivergent kids will be asked about their feelings and taken away for a little chat or a board game. Plus, I don't think you appreciate how difficult and draining it is to be accountable for the learning of children in a classroom. It can be akin to herding cats. Throw in three, four or five neurodivergent kids on top of that, and ones who aren't medicated, this makes teaching feel like hell. It's not fair on the teacher's wellbeing and mental health and it isn't fair on the other children who all have a right to come to school to learn and feel safe. A colleague had a primary aged child at school and often was messaged during the day that her child had had their hair pulled and punched by x (who had a personal teaching assistant because was ''on the spectrum ''but her child was OK . Her child on being collected from school and asked would simply say that x had been ''overwhelmed'' and teacher said others had to ''be kind'' (x was taken to chill out room to calm down after committing the assault when colleague enquired). She assumed that x had simply taken a dislike to her child and as her child would parrot the ''overwhelmed'' excuse the school gave the pupils just kept a weather eye on events . On talking to another parent and discovering they had similar messages they demanded a meeting with all concerned to be told the x often became 'triggered'' just before playtime which ''overwhelmed'' them causing the lashing out and for the personal teaching assistant to remove the autistic child before ''triggering' was discriminatory so would not be done. So the normal non violent kids (with no personal assistant) are left to suffer the ''overwhelming'' the thug with an excuse who should be in locked accommodation if he can't behave . |
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Apr 7, 2024 14:02:37 GMT
I know. Neurotypical kids will get consequences for their behaviour. Neurodivergent kids will be asked about their feelings and taken away for a little chat or a board game. Plus, I don't think you appreciate how difficult and draining it is to be accountable for the learning of children in a classroom. It can be akin to herding cats. Throw in three, four or five neurodivergent kids on top of that, and ones who aren't medicated, this makes teaching feel like hell. It's not fair on the teacher's wellbeing and mental health and it isn't fair on the other children who all have a right to come to school to learn and feel safe. A colleague had a primary aged child at school and often was messaged during the day that her child had had their hair pulled and punched by x (who had a personal teaching assistant because was ''on the spectrum ''but her child was OK . Her child on being collected from school and asked would simply say that x had been ''overwhelmed'' and teacher said others had to ''be kind'' (x was taken to chill out room to calm down after committing the assault when colleague enquired). She assumed that x had simply taken a dislike to her child and as her child would parrot the ''overwhelmed'' excuse the school gave the pupils just kept a weather eye on events . On talking to another parent and discovering they had similar messages they demanded a meeting with all concerned to be told the x often became 'triggered'' just before playtime which ''overwhelmed'' them causing the lashing out and for the personal teaching assistant to remove the autistic child before ''triggering' was discriminatory so would not be done. So the normal non violent kids (with no personal assistant) are left to suffer the ''overwhelming'' the thug with an excuse who should be in locked accommodation if he can't behave . From what you say they seem to be telling the truth regarding this triggering. What seems to have happened is the autistic person has some strange traits say, and each time they get other kids laughing unkindly at them, then this will develop into a trigger. It's the Pavlovian classical conditioning going on. To correct this conditioning you need to gain the opposite experience. The example given is the dog and the bell. Each time the bell rings you feed the dog, so if the bell rings the dog expects to be fed via the association. If you want to eliminate the conditioning you ring the bell and never feed the dog at that time, so the dog gradually loses the triggering mechanism. The truth is the child had developed the trigger though previous bullying. Kids can be such nasty brats. In our schools the association was between nasty brats and kids that came from the dreaded council estate. It got that reputation. |
|
|
|
Post by ratcliff on Apr 7, 2024 14:04:55 GMT
Autistic people have more initiative than normal people and can easily manage themselves. What utter rubbish Another poster has already posted that he is unfairly (in his opinion) criticised for lack of initiative at work when only working within his job description and does not understand why 'normal'' people agree with the criticism. That poster has also stated that he will undertake extra work only if asked and only if he thinks he has ''spare'' capacity He has also previously stated that his employer has to make ''minor '' adjustments for him at work ( but went on radio silence when I twice asked the nature of these ''minor'' adjustments) None of this displays any initiative whatsoever, far from it, and only evidences that someone on the autistic spectrum bandwagon ( I agree with the poster who suggested that normality should also have a spectrum as it's all degrees of personality) requires constant supervision and handholding within a working environment . What benefit would there be in me taking on extra work if I don't have the capacity for it? The work either wouldn't get done or would be delivered to a questionable standard. I've no problem talking about the minor adjustments I've requested at work, to have any tasks assigned to me confirmed in an email or teams message and to have an assigned desk. I don't require constant supervision and hand holding, on the contrary I work best when I'm assigned a clear task and am then left to get on with it. Thank you - you confirm that you cannot multitask ,show no initiative, work only according to written instructions and resource guard . Do you work in the public sector? |
|
|
|
Post by ratcliff on Apr 7, 2024 14:09:21 GMT
A colleague had a primary aged child at school and often was messaged during the day that her child had had their hair pulled and punched by x (who had a personal teaching assistant because was ''on the spectrum ''but her child was OK . Her child on being collected from school and asked would simply say that x had been ''overwhelmed'' and teacher said others had to ''be kind'' (x was taken to chill out room to calm down after committing the assault when colleague enquired). She assumed that x had simply taken a dislike to her child and as her child would parrot the ''overwhelmed'' excuse the school gave the pupils just kept a weather eye on events . On talking to another parent and discovering they had similar messages they demanded a meeting with all concerned to be told the x often became 'triggered'' just before playtime which ''overwhelmed'' them causing the lashing out and for the personal teaching assistant to remove the autistic child before ''triggering' was discriminatory so would not be done. So the normal non violent kids (with no personal assistant) are left to suffer the ''overwhelming'' the thug with an excuse who should be in locked accommodation if he can't behave . From what you say they seem to be telling the truth regarding this triggering. What seems to have happened is the autistic person has some strange traits say, and each time they get other kids laughing unkindly at them, then this will develop into a trigger. It's the Pavlovian classical conditioning going on. To correct this conditioning you need to gain the opposite experience. The example given is the dog and the bell. Each time the bell rings you feed the dog, so if the bell rings the dog expects to be fed via the association. If you want to eliminate the conditioning you ring the bell and never feed the dog at that time, so the dog gradually loses the triggering mechanism. The truth is the child had developed the trigger though previous bullying. Kids can be such nasty brats. In our schools the association was between nasty brats and kids that came from the dreaded council estate. It got that reputation. No , the sole point is that the normal school kids were subjected to violence from an over protected mini thug who was afforded every excuse in the book instead of being severely disciplined and made to behave or expelled and removed from mainstream society if he did not conform within a month (maximum) . |
|
|
|
Post by happyhornet on Apr 7, 2024 14:30:13 GMT
What benefit would there be in me taking on extra work if I don't have the capacity for it? The work either wouldn't get done or would be delivered to a questionable standard. I've no problem talking about the minor adjustments I've requested at work, to have any tasks assigned to me confirmed in an email or teams message and to have an assigned desk. I don't require constant supervision and hand holding, on the contrary I work best when I'm assigned a clear task and am then left to get on with it. Thank you - you confirm that you cannot multitask ,show no initiative, work only according to written instructions and resource guard . Do you work in the public sector? I typically work on 3 or 4 bids at once. I never said that I only work to written instructions. Never said I resource guarded either. I ask again, who would benefit from me taking on work that I don't have the capacity to deliver on time to the required standard? |
|
|
|
Post by happyhornet on Apr 7, 2024 14:31:19 GMT
From what you say they seem to be telling the truth regarding this triggering. What seems to have happened is the autistic person has some strange traits say, and each time they get other kids laughing unkindly at them, then this will develop into a trigger. It's the Pavlovian classical conditioning going on. To correct this conditioning you need to gain the opposite experience. The example given is the dog and the bell. Each time the bell rings you feed the dog, so if the bell rings the dog expects to be fed via the association. If you want to eliminate the conditioning you ring the bell and never feed the dog at that time, so the dog gradually loses the triggering mechanism. The truth is the child had developed the trigger though previous bullying. Kids can be such nasty brats. In our schools the association was between nasty brats and kids that came from the dreaded council estate. It got that reputation. No , the sole point is that the normal school kids were subjected to violence from an over protected mini thug who was afforded every excuse in the book instead of being severely disciplined and made to behave or expelled and removed from mainstream society if he did not conform within a month (maximum) . Do you currently have kids in school? Trust me it's not just neurodivergent kids that get away with violence. |
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Apr 7, 2024 14:55:58 GMT
From what you say they seem to be telling the truth regarding this triggering. What seems to have happened is the autistic person has some strange traits say, and each time they get other kids laughing unkindly at them, then this will develop into a trigger. It's the Pavlovian classical conditioning going on. To correct this conditioning you need to gain the opposite experience. The example given is the dog and the bell. Each time the bell rings you feed the dog, so if the bell rings the dog expects to be fed via the association. If you want to eliminate the conditioning you ring the bell and never feed the dog at that time, so the dog gradually loses the triggering mechanism. The truth is the child had developed the trigger though previous bullying. Kids can be such nasty brats. In our schools the association was between nasty brats and kids that came from the dreaded council estate. It got that reputation. No , the sole point is that the normal school kids were subjected to violence from an over protected mini thug who was afforded every excuse in the book instead of being severely disciplined and made to behave or expelled and removed from mainstream society if he did not conform within a month (maximum) . I get your point. That can be bad as well. It's all about the provocation and the level of response. If it were someone taking the piss badly and the child very angrily shouted something very explicit back then taking him away and letting him calm down would be the right way to go in my view as it defuses it. However if the person escalated it into violence then I think you have to punish equally or else they will get worse. It's a bit odd in my view. The autistic child can get very pissed off when they have been unfairly treated, but people say the autistic mind is very strong in the moralising sense. It weighs things up like a judge and enforces the sentence with determination. I think for this particular child there are other factors at work. Our school had some nasty pieces of work who went around causing trouble. We put it down to upbringing. The parents were just as bad. |
|
