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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Apr 6, 2024 22:48:50 GMT
They can't work with groups very well. A lot of people overloads the brain. These are common traits no matter which autistic person you hear from.
You keep on giving it the idea the one case throws an entire generalisation into a state of invalidity. If you can't group similar concepts together you wont find anything intelligible.I'm trying to give an overview sufficiently detailed so you can understand it. If I had to qualify everything to the level of your nitpicking it would just slow down communication.
Nope ..you keep on giving this idea that “Autistic people have more initiative than normal people and can easily manage themselves.” when you are patently wrong . You are peddling a false trope and somehow trying to turn it on me . Well at least my explanation makes sense. The opposite type is the type that needs the group to survive. Autistic people are often loaners or have a small circle of friends. I know there are really messed up ones who need constant care, but I already covered that case earlier, so no wish to repeat.
I have a friend like that who lives in a van and travels around France. He is totally fucked off with this country and hates it to pieces. One thing about him though is he is a very talented artist. It's funny because although he often attracts the attention of the UK's coppers, there have been occasions where the copper was sure he was doing something wrong but his replies to questioning were so long and convoluted that coppers have had to walk away and give up. They get 10x more than they bargain for. This has happened at the customs travelling back from France. They held him for two days and he made the officers crazy. He can talk for ten hours non stop.
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Post by Bentley on Apr 6, 2024 23:04:09 GMT
Nope ..you keep on giving this idea that “Autistic people have more initiative than normal people and can easily manage themselves.” when you are patently wrong . You are peddling a false trope and somehow trying to turn it on me . Well at least my explanation makes sense. The opposite type is the type that needs the group to survive. Autistic people are often loaners or have a small circle of friends. I know there are really messed up ones who need constant care, but I already covered that case earlier, so no wish to repeat.
I have a friend like that who lives in a van and travels around France. He is totally fucked off with this country and hates it to pieces. One thing about him though is he is a very talented artist. It's funny because although he often attracts the attention of the UK's coppers, there have been occasions where the copper was sure he was doing something wrong but his replies to questioning were so long and convoluted that coppers have had to walk away and give up. They get 10x more than they bargain for. This has happened at the customs travelling back from France. They held him for two days and he made the officers crazy. He can talk for ten hours non stop.
You don’t offer an ‘ explanation’ . You offer a stereotype You made this claim “ Autistic people have more initiative than normal people and can easily manage themselves.” and it’s wrong . Some Autistic people fit your trope but most do not . There are many Autistic people who severely handicapped by it . Also there is a wide spectrum of Autism . You need to stop posting Autistic tropes . Maybe you need to say ‘ some autistic people’ rather than making generations. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Apr 7, 2024 0:01:09 GMT
Well at least my explanation makes sense. The opposite type is the type that needs the group to survive. Autistic people are often loaners or have a small circle of friends. I know there are really messed up ones who need constant care, but I already covered that case earlier, so no wish to repeat.
I have a friend like that who lives in a van and travels around France. He is totally fucked off with this country and hates it to pieces. One thing about him though is he is a very talented artist. It's funny because although he often attracts the attention of the UK's coppers, there have been occasions where the copper was sure he was doing something wrong but his replies to questioning were so long and convoluted that coppers have had to walk away and give up. They get 10x more than they bargain for. This has happened at the customs travelling back from France. They held him for two days and he made the officers crazy. He can talk for ten hours non stop.
You don’t offer an ‘ explanation’ . You offer a stereotype You made this claim “ Autistic people have more initiative than normal people and can easily manage themselves.” and it’s wrong . Some Autistic people fit your trope but most do not . There are many Autistic people who severely handicapped by it . Also there is a wide spectrum of Autism . You need to stop posting Autistic tropes . Maybe you need to say ‘ some autistic people’ rather than making generations. It would not surprise me in the UK that some poor autistic people have had a bit if a chemical lobotomy. The amount of psychiatric substances prescribed is rather horrendous. Anyway there are a lot of normal functioning autistic people. See the graphs on that video if you want exact information. There is a lot of variation within the group just as there is in normal people. It's the averages we use to make sense of the condition. |
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Post by Orac on Apr 7, 2024 6:38:29 GMT
I don't think i have a problem with this approach - people who are really good code breakers are more likely to be 'neuro-divergent' than the rest of the population. However, people who are neuro-divergent are probably no more likely to have this skill set than normal people because more of them would be totally excluded with below average for a range of reasoning skills
It's a little like the intelligence spread between men and women. Men are more likely to have a genius IQ than women, but if you pick a random man and woman, the woman will likely have an edge. Most jobs are not looking for geniuses who can divide patterns out of noise while staring at a wall. However, i have sympathy - i think our society used to be far better at identifying such people and putting them in situations in which they could make gigantic contributions. Unfortunately, we now have a management class who just wants to drive in the middle lane and not make decisions Stupid mangers and manageresses are the worst enemy of the autistic person and are hated with a vengeance. The best places for them would be some sort of physics lab in Cambridge where they may well be in the majority and will be warmly welcomed. The smarter the manger the better they understand and if they completely understand it would make work work. Autistic people need the flexibility and freedom to manage themselves without some jobsworth interfering. One of their traits is they are morally responsible, so can be trusted if your back is turned. It's a tragedy that's going to have some pretty dire consequences. I know everyone has a social theory and mine is that we removed the old system of status but didn't replace it with anything coherent. The people who end up in managerial control now are the narcissists who genuinely feel they deserve to be in control - ie emotional children who feel it's something they are owed. These are just about the worst people for these roles imaginable - |
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Post by buccaneer on Apr 7, 2024 7:05:22 GMT
If you genuinely want an answer to that question, I recommend you watch the video BvL posted a while back. Prof Simon Baron-Cohen is an internationally recognised authority on Autism and answers your question. To a certain extent it's obvious. As we have learned more about autism and ADHD, it has become easier for clinicians to recognise. He refutes the idea that they have become more prevalent, but that they are now more recognised and easier to diagnose. The problem that is floating around on social media at the moment is one of self-diagnosis. Too many people consulting 'Dr Google' and deciding that their traits (which we all have) add up to them being autistic (or having ADHD). Another observation, which again I alluded to in my original post, is 'what is normal?', which is probably worth a separate thread, but briefly when I began my nurse training in 1989, we were told we were not allowed to use the word 'normal', because what right had we (as healthcare professionals) to impose our sense of 'normal' on other people. That's something we should perhaps ponder in all aspects of socio-politics? The two things that you've touched on there are essentially the same: Autism and ADHD have become easier for clinicians to recognise because lots of people have them.
Which begs the question: Is it simply normal?
If we accept that Autism is a spectrum (as seems sensible) then it would seem that "Normal" is also a spectrum.
After all, we don't all view the world the same way. We have different politics, different religious beliefs, different ways of solving problems.
That I might look at a problem differently to you, be more or less socially awkward or better/worse at some tasks is not necessarily indicative of a condition on either side. It's just normal difference.
I would like to know why autism and ADHD are so prevalent in society today. Something is wrong with the environment, diet or even gestation. A lot of acquaintances I know who are teachers, have to literally bend over backwards for children with autism and ADHD, and continue to make "adjustments" for these kids, even if they are tearing up a classroom. So, it is a bit like what the OP states for adults in the workforce. It seems like today, a child who doesn't have autism or ADHD is in a minority, and they don't get all this special treatment. The special treatment is also funded to a certain degree but academically their results are often falling now matter how much time and money is placed into their 'needs'. It's money down the toilet when you have a D level kid who struggles, and puts 100% effort in during class. He or she won't get an extra pair of hands to help him in one on one situations because the child who refuses to do any school work whatsoever and would rather play with fidget toys gets all this time, money and effort ploughed into him because he is "neurodiverse" where as bang for buck would be better spent on pushing the willing struggler from a D to C. |
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Post by Orac on Apr 7, 2024 7:23:55 GMT
The two things that you've touched on there are essentially the same: Autism and ADHD have become easier for clinicians to recognise because lots of people have them.
Which begs the question: Is it simply normal?
If we accept that Autism is a spectrum (as seems sensible) then it would seem that "Normal" is also a spectrum.
After all, we don't all view the world the same way. We have different politics, different religious beliefs, different ways of solving problems.
That I might look at a problem differently to you, be more or less socially awkward or better/worse at some tasks is not necessarily indicative of a condition on either side. It's just normal difference.
I would like to know why autism and ADHD are so prevalent in society today. Something is wrong with the environment, diet or even gestation. I think the 'standard answer' is that we are now far better at diagnosing. However, I don't buy this explanation because the levels of the profoundly disabling (ie patently evident) forms of these conditions is also rising. We may not have had a name for it, but we have been keeping records of this sort of thing since the century before the last. |
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Post by happyhornet on Apr 7, 2024 7:44:55 GMT
The two things that you've touched on there are essentially the same: Autism and ADHD have become easier for clinicians to recognise because lots of people have them.
Which begs the question: Is it simply normal?
If we accept that Autism is a spectrum (as seems sensible) then it would seem that "Normal" is also a spectrum.
After all, we don't all view the world the same way. We have different politics, different religious beliefs, different ways of solving problems.
That I might look at a problem differently to you, be more or less socially awkward or better/worse at some tasks is not necessarily indicative of a condition on either side. It's just normal difference.
I would like to know why autism and ADHD are so prevalent in society today. Something is wrong with the environment, diet or even gestation. A lot of acquaintances I know who are teachers, have to literally bend over backwards for children with autism and ADHD, and continue to make "adjustments" for these kids, even if they are tearing up a classroom. So, it is a bit like what the OP states for adults in the workforce. It seems like today, a child who doesn't have autism or ADHD is in a minority, and they don't get all this special treatment. The special treatment is also funded to a certain degree but academically their results are often falling now matter how much time and money is placed into their 'needs'. It's money down the toilet when you have a D level kid who struggles, and puts 100% effort in during class. He or she won't get an extra pair of hands to help him in one on one situations because the child who refuses to do any school work whatsoever and would rather play with fidget toys gets all this time, money and effort ploughed into him because he is "neurodiverse" where as bang for buck would be better spent on pushing the willing struggler from a D to C. Have you considered that autism and ADHD isn't more prevalent today it just seems that way because we have a better understanding of it and more people are being diagnosed and there is less social stigma attached to it so people are more comfortable openly discussing it? My eldest has had some of the special treatment you bemoan and as a result he is now performing academically at the expected standard of a kid his age across all subjects. Neurodivergent kids attending mainstream school also helps them to develop social skills and strategies which will help their employment prospects in adult life which benefits society as a whole. I'd also add that autistic adults make allowances for negative neurotypical behavioural traits and expend huge amounts of emotional and physical energy every day to mask for the benefit of neurotypical people, to make them more comfortable. I don't think that asking for a bit of reciprocation is hugely unreasonable. |
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Post by happyhornet on Apr 7, 2024 7:47:13 GMT
I would like to know why autism and ADHD are so prevalent in society today. Something is wrong with the environment, diet or even gestation. I think the 'standard answer' is that we are now far better at diagnosing. However, I don't buy this explanation because the levels of the profoundly disabling (ie patently evident) forms of these conditions is also rising. We may not have had a name for it, but we have been keeping records of this sort of thing since the century before the last. Again maybe in times gone by such people were hidden away like a dirty secret? |
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Post by Orac on Apr 7, 2024 7:51:42 GMT
I think the 'standard answer' is that we are now far better at diagnosing. However, I don't buy this explanation because the levels of the profoundly disabling (ie patently evident) forms of these conditions is also rising. We may not have had a name for it, but we have been keeping records of this sort of thing since the century before the last. Again maybe in times gone by such people were hidden away like a dirty secret? Essentially, that's the notion that i have just argued is implausible. |
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Post by happyhornet on Apr 7, 2024 8:17:59 GMT
Again maybe in times gone by such people were hidden away like a dirty secret? Essentially, that's the notion that i have just argued is implausible. Why is it implausible? |
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Post by Orac on Apr 7, 2024 8:55:03 GMT
Essentially, that's the notion that i have just argued is implausible. Why is it implausible? It falls into the category of common sense. If you find it plausible that ten-hundreds of thousands of people were 'hidden' in western countries during the sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties, perhaps you could give some detail on how this record-less internment was achieved? Additionally, as far as I know, the prevalence is still rising. |
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Post by Bentley on Apr 7, 2024 9:20:11 GMT
You don’t offer an ‘ explanation’ . You offer a stereotype You made this claim “ Autistic people have more initiative than normal people and can easily manage themselves.” and it’s wrong . Some Autistic people fit your trope but most do not . There are many Autistic people who severely handicapped by it . Also there is a wide spectrum of Autism . You need to stop posting Autistic tropes . Maybe you need to say ‘ some autistic people’ rather than making generations. It would not surprise me in the UK that some poor autistic people have had a bit if a chemical lobotomy. The amount of psychiatric substances prescribed is rather horrendous. Anyway there are a lot of normal functioning autistic people. See the graphs on that video if you want exact information. There is a lot of variation within the group just as there is in normal people. It's the averages we use to make sense of the condition. There is enough variation within the group to render the claim “Autistic people have more initiative than normal people and can easily manage themselves.” as a false generalisation. |
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Post by happyhornet on Apr 7, 2024 9:24:56 GMT
It falls into the category of common sense. If you find it plausible that ten-hundreds of thousands of people were 'hidden' in western countries during the sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties, perhaps you could give some detail on how this record-less internment was achieved? Additionally, as far as I know, the prevalence is still rising. Wouldn't common sense dictate that far fewer autistic kids were in mainstream education in the past? Many still aren't today. So you wouldn't have seen them at school. This goes back a bit further but explains: "At the time, treatment for autism was very limited. Most of these children were placed in institutions, far from the public eye, to live out their lives." nationalautismcenter.org/autism/historical-perspective/#:~:text=At%20the%20time%2C%20treatment%20for,symptoms%20observed%20in%20these%20children. There are also examples of autistic people being confined to institutions more recently: "Scots with learning disabilities and autism have been locked in secure hospitals and psychiatric wards for decades, a BBC investigation has found" www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-62477095Do you deny that diagnostic techniques and systems have improved? |
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Post by happyhornet on Apr 7, 2024 9:29:19 GMT
It falls into the category of common sense. If you find it plausible that ten-hundreds of thousands of people were 'hidden' in western countries during the sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties, perhaps you could give some detail on how this record-less internment was achieved? Additionally, as far as I know, the prevalence is still rising. You know there is a theory that autism is the next stage of human evolution. |
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Post by Orac on Apr 7, 2024 9:50:05 GMT
It falls into the category of common sense. If you find it plausible that ten-hundreds of thousands of people were 'hidden' in western countries during the sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties, perhaps you could give some detail on how this record-less internment was achieved? Additionally, as far as I know, the prevalence is still rising. Wouldn't common sense dictate that far fewer autistic kids were in mainstream education in the past? Many still aren't today. So you wouldn't have seen them at school. I'm not talking about seeing them at school. i'm talking diagnosis and record keeping - which were very much things in the nineties |
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