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Post by zanygame on Nov 26, 2022 10:28:13 GMT
Indeed, you cause me to wonder if we ought to have a meritocracy rather than a democracy. There is no agreed definition of merit. Most people feel others have merit if they agree with them. In fact, this way of thinking is so the norm, you might as well call it 'human nature' There is little difference between deciding who has merit (so they can have power) and just deciding who can have power. People vote for candidates because they feel they have merit. A genuine meritocracy is usually short lived and emerges out of a situation that is (yet) uncorralled and filled with entrepreneurs. I'd say it was practically impossible to consciously create (maintain) a functional meritocracy beyond keeping the very basic systems in place that weed out corruption and allow those who provide what is needed to get a reward for doing so One thing i will say is that our current ruling class, nearly without exception, come from the total opposite of the kind of situation that selects for merit. I agree on the whole. My post was more a comment on how poor the public are at choosing their leaders. We moan about the narcissistic greedy politicians who rule us and yet time and again we believe their empty promises and vote them in. We are bound up in a history of lies. Promises that you need billionaires or the country will fail, when millionaires are the ones that really invest. Promises that government can look after all the poor, when the poor need to also help themselves. We wilfully ignore facts and precedents and vote for the guy with the best smile and the charisma. That is why the Lords should be made up of experts in every field from the Arts to Sport to Science. Meritocracy.
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Post by dappy on Nov 26, 2022 10:58:10 GMT
While I agree with your conclusion about the make up of the (to be rebranded) HoL, Zany, maybe less so your path to get there.
You do get lazy narcissistic greedy power crazy politicians - I think Johnson and Patel would fall into that category - I don’t think that’s true of the vast majority. Most go into the role with the right intentions wanting to make the world a better place. The media and particular internet driven incessant abuse is making the job almost impossible. While we may disagree passionately with the views of Truss and Kwarteng and Braverman and Sunak and Sunak and Starmer and Corbyn and Abbott, I think they are all decent people believing their ideas are the right ones for the country.
We should all be concerned that people like Dehenna Davison, Chloe Smith, William Wragg are all walking away thinking it’s not worth the hassle. Look at the abuse the Finnish PM got for trying to be normal outside of work. Don’t know the answer but at least let’s recognise we are the problem.
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 26, 2022 11:11:40 GMT
Most go into the role with the right intentions wanting to make the world a better place. . Entirely agree with this. The cynicism directed at politicians is overdone.
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Post by Orac on Nov 26, 2022 11:24:53 GMT
I agree on the whole. My post was more a comment on how poor the public are at choosing their leaders. We moan about the narcissistic greedy politicians who rule us and yet time and again we believe their empty promises and vote them in. In my view, our society doesn't have the chops for this kind of discernment any more. Decades of smiley, degenerate TV has blunted our social senses and our worst psychopaths grin at us daily and outline their parasitic world view in our living rooms. Additionally, a lot of this filtering cannot be done just on election day. The fact that you can't readily tell the difference between a psychopath and an altruist is the whole point of psychopathy. If the filtering is not done on election day, when is it done? Perhaps it is performed through a social fabric that makes it difficult for psychopaths etc to get on. Codes of honour, non optional social standards and a disdain for corruption, betrayal and cowardice. This type of society, in my view, is a necessary pre-requisite for a functioning democracy. We used to have this, which imo is a large part of the reason we were successful. We are bound up in a history of lies. Promises that you need billionaires or the country will fail, when millionaires are the ones that really invest. I find your rhetoric here interesting. As long as you are targeting one group, you are IMHO missing the real problem. The problem is not that we have billionaires or they are not taxed enough, the real problem is that many of these billionaires have done little but play a patronage game we set up. The system has been stitched up (with our collusion) to pre-exclude any kind of merit that would be useful to us. Rather than select for real courage, honesty and integrity, we have set up a system of patronage, buzz wording and falseness that selects for all the wrong qualities for leadership and all but excludes the correct ones. So when it comes to polling day, we get to select between two entirely compromised, limp candidates with low personal qualities, who have likely spent their entire life doing little but exactly what they are told (advised) to do. This is what I mean when i say that our ruling class comes from an environment which is the opposite of one that selects for merit. There is some limited 'merit' in saying the 'correct' things until you end up king, but it is not a merit that is useful to anyone else but yourself. That is why the Lords should be made up of experts in every field from the Arts to Sport to Science. Meritocracy. This can't work in the current environment. It would likely just be hijacked by people inventing their own dimensions of merit and insisting they also be represented. Could it be that one key to a working society is intolerance?
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Post by zanygame on Nov 26, 2022 14:02:21 GMT
While I agree with your conclusion about the make up of the (to be rebranded) HoL, Zany, maybe less so your path to get there. You do get lazy narcissistic greedy power crazy politicians - I think Johnson and Patel would fall into that category - I don’t think that’s true of the vast majority. Most go into the role with the right intentions wanting to make the world a better place. The media and particular internet driven incessant abuse is making the job almost impossible. While we may disagree passionately with the views of Truss and Kwarteng and Braverman and Sunak and Sunak and Starmer and Corbyn and Abbott, I think they are all decent people believing their ideas are the right ones for the country. We should all be concerned that people like Dehenna Davison, Chloe Smith, William Wragg are all walking away thinking it’s not worth the hassle. Look at the abuse the Finnish PM got for trying to be normal outside of work. Don’t know the answer but at least let’s recognise we are the problem. I agree Dappy, but look at the ones at the top of the heap making the decisions.
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Post by thomas on Nov 26, 2022 14:07:55 GMT
While I agree with your conclusion about the make up of the (to be rebranded) HoL, Zany, maybe less so your path to get there. You do get lazy narcissistic greedy power crazy politicians - I think Johnson and Patel would fall into that category - I don’t think that’s true of the vast majority. Most go into the role with the right intentions wanting to make the world a better place. The media and particular internet driven incessant abuse is making the job almost impossible. While we may disagree passionately with the views of Truss and Kwarteng and Braverman and Sunak and Sunak and Starmer and Corbyn and Abbott, I think they are all decent people believing their ideas are the right ones for the country. We should all be concerned that people like Dehenna Davison, Chloe Smith, William Wragg are all walking away thinking it’s not worth the hassle. Look at the abuse the Finnish PM got for trying to be normal outside of work. Don’t know the answer but at least let’s recognise we are the problem. I agree Dappy, but look at the ones at the top of the heap making the decisions. Heres a poster from 1910, thats over a century ago , from the labour party promising to abolish the house of lords. Something they have promised to do , but never once done , in every election since.
Hilarious.
Not sure whats more hilarious , labour promising to abolish the HOL or the fact some people actually believe them.
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Post by zanygame on Nov 26, 2022 14:21:14 GMT
I don't think anyone can be expected to recognise a psychopath, but then I'm not suggesting we learn to judge our politicians as a psychiatrist. I would prefer a system that judged them on their manifesto and how much of it they carried out. I have proposed before the idea that any change in manifesto promise must be put to the people in poll. We are bound up in a history of lies. Promises that you need billionaires or the country will fail, when millionaires are the ones that really invest. I find it quite interesting that you chose only my first example and ignored my second. However, to your point. How does the system prevent us selecting real courage, honesty and integrity? I don't understand this. Boris does not fit into this description, nor Sunak. Boris would say whatever you wanted most to hear, but never intended to do them, he is not a sheep being lead but a deliberate liar choosing his words to extend his power. That is why the Lords should be made up of experts in every field from the Arts to Sport to Science. Meritocracy. They could try, but if such a person is presented as a candidate they would still need to get the support of 70% of the HOC. We could look at who gets to nominate candidates?
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Post by Orac on Nov 26, 2022 14:21:14 GMT
This poster would have been around the time of when what would become Lloyd George's land reform proposals began to be discussed by the public. These were eventually quashed by the HOL.
The people depicted are probably not non binary people fighting for their pronouns, but rather people who said some genuine issues based in reality.
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Post by zanygame on Nov 26, 2022 14:25:05 GMT
This poster would have been around the time of when what would become Lloyd George's land reform proposals began to be discussed by the public. These were eventually quashed by the HOL. The people depicted are probably not non binary people fighting for their pronouns, but rather people who said some genuine issues based in reality. Yep, back in the good old days when it was right to beat up gay men and racism didn't exist. Oh how we miss those times. We should encourage raping your wife and beating your children as well.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 26, 2022 14:33:47 GMT
I agree Dappy, but look at the ones at the top of the heap making the decisions. Heres a poster from 1910, thats over a century ago , from the labour party promising to abolish the house of lords. Something they have promised to do , but never once done , in every election since.
Hilarious.
Not sure whats more hilarious , labour promising to abolish the HOL or the fact some people actually believe them.
Good post. In reality, I do think that Labour genuinely want to reform the HOL (into something far more malleable to their ideals) but they haven't actually got a clue how to go about it.
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Post by thomas on Nov 26, 2022 14:45:50 GMT
Heres a poster from 1910, thats over a century ago , from the labour party promising to abolish the house of lords. Something they have promised to do , but never once done , in every election since.
Hilarious.
Not sure whats more hilarious , labour promising to abolish the HOL or the fact some people actually believe them.
Good post. In reality, I do think that Labour genuinely want to reform the HOL (into something far more malleable to their ideals) but they haven't actually got a clue how to go about it.
I would agree with you point in so far as they want to genuinely reform the house of lords for their own political ends rather than the good of the uk or benefit of democracy.
In the last 122 years since that poster was made , they have had plenty opportunity to enact their promises on abolition or reform , and have miserably failed each and every time. This latest wheeze will be no different from all the rest.
The fact the issue is being raised and seriously discussed yet again by them and thier support amazes me.
If keir starmer told me the sun was going to rise tomorrow morning, i would have my head out the window checking first before i believed him.
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Post by thomas on Nov 26, 2022 14:52:15 GMT
Heres a poster from 1910, thats over a century ago , from the labour party promising to abolish the house of lords. Something they have promised to do , but never once done , in every election since.
Hilarious.
Not sure whats more hilarious , labour promising to abolish the HOL or the fact some people actually believe them.
Good post. In reality, I do think that Labour genuinely want to reform the HOL (into something far more malleable to their ideals) but they haven't actually got a clue how to go about it.
Heres another cracker. From 1983.......
The Labour Party: 1983 The New Hope for Britain
Take action to abolish the undemocratic House of Lords as quickly as possible
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Post by Orac on Nov 26, 2022 14:59:43 GMT
I don't think anyone can be expected to recognise a psychopath, but then I'm not suggesting we learn to judge our politicians as a psychiatrist. Neither do i, nor do i think it is feasible. Which is why i suggested that the rules of society have to do (and did) a lot of this heavy lifting for us. However, we now have a social form that selects psychopaths and deselects non-psychopaths. So now we have a ruling (managerial) class that is so dominated by these personality disorders and their preferences, there is no way to avoid them However, to your point. How does the system prevent us selecting real courage, honesty and integrity? Run away credentialism, managerialism and a focus on image rather than substance and reality. This is now a society wide dysfunction. Boris does not fit into this description Well spotted. However, that doesn't automatically make him a good leader either. He was never-the-less pruned away (after being elected) as being too much of a risk. He is the sort of person who might get some notion into his head and try to change something. We do get the odd one that breaks the containment, but it is getting rarer. Thatcher is another example, but she had solid leadership qualities - Boris not so much (if at all). Sunak is an empty vessel (a fully trained manager). If he shows us otherwise, I will update. I doubt we will even get a laugh out of this guy. They could try, but if such a person is presented as a candidate they would still need to get the support of 70% of the HOC If you can create fake dimensions of merit, you can leave the process with no choice but to appoint your people
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Post by see2 on Nov 26, 2022 15:42:32 GMT
I agree Dappy, but look at the ones at the top of the heap making the decisions. Heres a poster from 1910, thats over a century ago , from the labour party promising to abolish the house of lords. Something they have promised to do , but never once done , in every election since.
Hilarious.
Not sure whats more hilarious , labour promising to abolish the HOL or the fact some people actually believe them.
Back then the HoL was full of Tories. Full of people who had inherited their place as Peers and provided a major backing for the Conservative party and their ilk. It should have been abolished back then, but since then, thanks to New Labour the title of Peer of is now for life and is not transferable to members of the family. Those hereditary Peers that still exist will be the end of the line for their family. The idea that the present HoL can be improved upon is open for discussion which includes the possibility of it being abolished and replaced with something better.
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Post by zanygame on Nov 26, 2022 15:42:43 GMT
I don't think anyone can be expected to recognise a psychopath, but then I'm not suggesting we learn to judge our politicians as a psychiatrist. What rules? What social form, this is all very vague. However, to your point. How does the system prevent us selecting real courage, honesty and integrity? Means nothing to me. Boris does not fit into this description He was kicked out because he was found out. He wasn't Too much of a risk, he was a liability. I'm no fan of Sunak. But hardly an empty vessel. . They could try, but if such a person is presented as a candidate they would still need to get the support of 70% of the HOC No idea what this means. You would have to give an example, analogy etc.
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