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Post by Orac on Mar 14, 2024 16:37:06 GMT
I have no doubt this sort of thing happens in Italy and Aldi don't have to lie. Unless the Italians are enforcing on their side, nobody really knows. Major UK supermarkets are full of similar goods that are essentially faked - ie containers sporting the words 'extra virgin olive oil', which in reality are nothing of the sort. Ah but you simply can not lie about the country of origin as it only takes one person to make a complaint I'm not suggesting it doesn't actually come from italy. This is a weird sticking point. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Mar 14, 2024 19:18:04 GMT
Ah but you simply can not lie about the country of origin as it only takes one person to make a complaint I'm not suggesting it doesn't actually come from italy. This is a weird sticking point. It's just an example that fails to fit the general rules people work with, as per thinking everything from a supermarket is compromised. Talking of which here is another rule people work with, which is all artificial chemical are bad, especially if they are a preservative. I was looking at the ingredients of Morrison's mayonnaise to check if it had any pollutants in it. There was one called Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid, but it did not say that on the ingredients since they have an acronym for it that sounds less threatening.
We find out: (from wiki)
'Uses
Textiles and paper'
&
'Food
In a similar manner, EDTA is added to some food as a preservative or stabiliser to prevent catalytic oxidative decolouration, which is catalysed by metal ions.[5]'
So far not looking too good, as per long name, industrial chemical and used in food for cosmetic reasons.
Anyway, here is the surprise.
'Medicine
Sodium calcium edetate, an EDTA derivative, is used to bind metal ions in the practice of chelation therapy, such as for treating mercury and lead poisoning'
Far from poisoning you, it removed heavy metals that I understand will build up in the body over time and stay there. Not what you would expect, but there you go.
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Post by Orac on Mar 14, 2024 19:23:22 GMT
I'm not suggesting it doesn't actually come from italy. This is a weird sticking point. It's just an example that fails to fit the general rules people work with, as per thinking everything from a supermarket is compromised.
Sure - but you are going way over the top the other way and insisting that near-enough un-testable claims about manufacturing methods made by a a supplier in another country should be believed without question. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Mar 14, 2024 19:32:05 GMT
It's just an example that fails to fit the general rules people work with, as per thinking everything from a supermarket is compromised.
Sure - but you are going way over the top the other way and insisting that near-enough un-testable claims about manufacturing methods made by a a supplier in another country should be believed without question. It's probably true. I know what the Italians are like. They are fanatics. For me it was a surprise. Aldi can come up with some real gems sometimes. Their buyers really do know what they are doing. That's Germans for you, like totally efficient. Another good buy was chicken wontons from China. They were proper Chinese as well. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Mar 14, 2024 19:32:51 GMT
Back in the 1970s our prof of biochemistry pointed to several journal articles in the Biochemical Journal and Journal of Physiology that pointed to a few less than savoury ideas coming out of polyunsaturated fat freaks SATURATED fats as explained are all carbon-carbon single bond ling chain polymers such as the carbon 18 stearic acid. These are routinely chopped down by the Krebs citric acid cycle to power the phosphorylation of ADP to ATP and drive the electron transport chain UNSATURATED fats were deemed healthier by a rather flawed paper that equated high volumes of saturated fat in the diet with high volumes of cholesterol, failing to note that many of the test subjects were actually showing signs of a metabolic defect that increased the concentration of cholesterol and high density lipoprotein in the blood plasma, and crucially weakened cardiac cell walls. The test subjects for the study had been chosen for their propensity to suffer a potentially fatal disease, hardly the best way to proceed in a supposedly double blind test The more worrying fact however is that PolyUNSATURATED fats such as are found in supposedly healthier plant based spreads actually present a problem as their metabolism causes production of 'free radicals' small molecules with no ionic charge and an outer shell imbalance in one or more external atoms in their molecular structure. These are as damaging to DNA and protein structures as nuclear gamma rays and the only organ in the body equipped to destroy them is the liver. Pubmed NIH articles show evidence of organ damage in key organs including the brain as a direct result of dietary preferences towards unsaturated fats All the way back in 79 Prof Dodgon's professional opinion as a researcher in bacterial metabolism was that the eukaryotic cell was in as much danger from overexposure to unsaturated as the whole body was to exposure to excess saturated fat, but the damage was more insidious, and the only real answer was moderation Thanks for the detailed scientific explanation. I'm still trying to learn this biochemistry stuff.
So are these free radicals flipping bonds in the DNA?
Also another thought is, perhaps excessive alcohol damage to the liver would be a double effect here.
Ok From basic chemistry there's ionic bonding and covalent bonding, Ionic has an exchange of electrons to empty the outer shell of one atom giving it an overall positive charge, and fill the outer shell of another to give it an overall negative charge eg Na+ Cl- for salt Covalent bonding has carbon with four electrons in its outer shell sharing these with other atoms. Hydrogen has one electron and one space. Chlorine has seven electrons and one space. They share the four carbon atom outer shell electrons making C-H4 methane or C-Cl4 carbon tetrachloride The issue with polyunsaturated fats is the process that splits long chain polymers frees this small molecule with a partly empty, uncharged outer shell, it is highly reactive and can weak havoc with cell membranes, DNA, proteins, you name it. The A level biology practical used to have students immerse a piece of raw lamb or ox liver in a free radical rich dilute solution of hydrogen peroxide. Large chunks bubble, chopped liver fizzes, macerated liver exposing the majority of the internal cells causes an insane degree of frothing. Covalent free radicals are insanely reactive and probably initiated the cancers in the friends I knew who died of them after working in my research field, This is why I was rather pleased the hosepipe camera and cutters they stuck up my arse found the lumps they cut out had not yet gone malignant |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Mar 14, 2024 20:16:14 GMT
Thanks for the detailed scientific explanation. I'm still trying to learn this biochemistry stuff.
So are these free radicals flipping bonds in the DNA?
Also another thought is, perhaps excessive alcohol damage to the liver would be a double effect here.
Ok From basic chemistry there's ionic bonding and covalent bonding, Ionic has an exchange of electrons to empty the outer shell of one atom giving it an overall positive charge, and fill the outer shell of another to give it an overall negative charge eg Na+ Cl- for salt Covalent bonding has carbon with four electrons in its outer shell sharing these with other atoms. Hydrogen has one electron and one space. Chlorine has seven electrons and one space. They share the four carbon atom outer shell electrons making C-H4 methane or C-Cl4 carbon tetrachloride The issue with polyunsaturated fats is the process that splits long chain polymers frees this small molecule with a partly empty, uncharged outer shell, it is highly reactive and can weak havoc with cell membranes, DNA, proteins, you name it. The A level biology practical used to have students immerse a piece of raw lamb or ox liver in a free radical rich dilute solution of hydrogen peroxide. Large chunks bubble, chopped liver fizzes, macerated liver exposing the majority of the internal cells causes an insane degree of frothing. Covalent free radicals are insanely reactive and probably initiated the cancers in the friends I knew who died of them after working in my research field, This is why I was rather pleased the hosepipe camera and cutters they stuck up my arse found the lumps they cut out had not yet gone malignant So you are basically saying these free radicals can pretty much destroy anything they come into contact with.
What I don't get is why every damn scientist has been pushing these vegetable oils as a the healthy alternative knowing full well they are talking shit.
It looks to me like one has to be an expert in everything in the UK because every blighter lies to them. What a way to run a country.
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Post by johnofgwent on Mar 14, 2024 20:26:29 GMT
Yes, Baron, pretty much
The primary risks are in the digestive system and the liver. The liver is rammed with an enzyme that destroys them by hydrogenation (resaturation) and the hepatic portal vein delivers everything digested straight to the liver for processing
As I said, the drive to unsaturated fat is propelled by invalud health criticisms of the saturated component, but unsaturated fats are softer / liquid at lower temperatures and are probably cheaper to manipulate in industrial food making processes
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Post by Orac on Mar 14, 2024 20:38:14 GMT
Sure - but you are going way over the top the other way and insisting that near-enough un-testable claims about manufacturing methods made by a a supplier in another country should be believed without question. It's probably true. I know what the Italians are like. They are fanatics. For me it was a surprise. Aldi can come up with some real gems sometimes. Their buyers really do know what they are doing. That's Germans for you, like totally efficient. Another good buy was chicken wontons from China. They were proper Chinese as well. again - simply skepticism. They are selling for resale by a supermarket in the UK. After 40 years of eating rubbish, the uk public (on the whole) are not very discerning. I don't know if this claim is true or not but i hear you can't get proper french bread in the UK. It just isn't available. You can easily get brown long things that call themselves baguettes in supermarkets though. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Mar 14, 2024 21:59:34 GMT
It's probably true. I know what the Italians are like. They are fanatics. For me it was a surprise. Aldi can come up with some real gems sometimes. Their buyers really do know what they are doing. That's Germans for you, like totally efficient. Another good buy was chicken wontons from China. They were proper Chinese as well. again - simply skepticism. They are selling for resale by a supermarket in the UK. After 40 years of eating rubbish, the uk public (on the whole) are not very discerning. I don't know if this claim is true or not but i hear you can't get proper french bread in the UK. It just isn't available. You can easily get brown long things that call themselves baguettes in supermarkets though. I'm fully aware you can't get French bread in a supermarket. I used to eat Jung's bread, which was a small specialist Austrian delicatessen. They baked their own, but used French flour, and that was decent bread. Unfortunately, like all exceptional quality establishments it is long gone. We also had a baker in this town who did proper bread, but wanted about £4/loaf, and most likely more now, but that was very nice. So what I'm saying is I do know my bread. Anyway, Aldi were no the best I've had or anything like that, but it was definitely surprisingly good quality. I think the base was similar to those Pizza hut ones which were pretty nice as well. For someone on a budget Aldi serves them well. I don't need to refer to the ingredients with supermarket bread. It is obvious on the first bite. However Morrisons does have a backup. Some firm local to us which seems to be supplying the supermarkets do these organic ciabatta which is notably better. That's what i generally buy if I need some bread. I might like perhaps to fry some chicken and peppers and use one of those. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Mar 14, 2024 22:12:52 GMT
Yes, Baron, pretty much The primary risks are in the digestive system and the liver. The liver is rammed with an enzyme that destroys them by hydrogenation (resaturation) and the hepatic portal vein delivers everything digested straight to the liver for processing As I said, the drive to unsaturated fat is propelled by invalud health criticisms of the saturated component, but unsaturated fats are softer / liquid at lower temperatures and are probably cheaper to manipulate in industrial food making processes I do believe it is the job of government to actually regulate industry in times when it presents a harm to the public. Perhaps the industry has been making political donations. I've seen many dodgy food issues, such as with contamination and poorly regulated chemicals. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Mar 15, 2024 8:48:22 GMT
I have no doubt this sort of thing happens in Italy and Aldi don't have to lie. Unless the Italians are enforcing on their side, nobody really knows. Major UK supermarkets are full of similar goods that are essentially faked - ie containers sporting the words 'extra virgin olive oil', which in reality are nothing of the sort. Ah but you simply can not lie about the country of origin as it only takes one person to make a complaint and then you are in deep trouble. As for the freshly frozen and other silly claims, yes this goes on all the time, but in my case it is irrelevant. You go to Milan and buy a pizza from a man in the piazza on a mobile pizza stand and it will be better than a UK restaurant pizza. Milan is a rich city, and full of Italians with exquisite taste. No way can you trade a second-rate pizza in that place! It would cause a riot. Ah but the thing is, there are lies, and then there are lies I’m not actually convinced there’s really any difference in taste between scotch beef steak and any other uk beef steak any more - if there ever was - but part of my cynicism comes from my discovery about oh god 30 years ago now that our food labelling ‘laws’ are so bloody warped i could take a truck of Friesians north of Gretna, unload them into a field rented for the purpose, have the abbatoir pick them up after seven days, take them to slaughter and have the meat labelled as Scotch beef even though it only stood there for a week. My source was the son of the farmer whose wife ran the B&B at which i was staying. One son ran an arable farm, the other ran a herd of Herefords iirc. The point being both he and his nearest neighbour who had a herd of Aberdeen Angus on their farm were rightly allowed to sell the meat as being “the meat of such cattle, raised in England” because it WAS, and yes the farm shop label ‘Aberdeen Angus Beef Reared In Buckinghamshire’ was apparently a selling point in itself, but both were less than impressed at tbe far more lax geographic regulations In the more extreme cases EU regulations allowed less than scrupulous meat traders to truck live animals huge distances to enjoy a premium price for what was in reality ‘locally slaughtered lamb etc’ which had only been in the locality in the truck bringing it to the slaughterhouse. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Mar 15, 2024 13:48:13 GMT
Ah but you simply can not lie about the country of origin as it only takes one person to make a complaint and then you are in deep trouble. As for the freshly frozen and other silly claims, yes this goes on all the time, but in my case it is irrelevant. You go to Milan and buy a pizza from a man in the piazza on a mobile pizza stand and it will be better than a UK restaurant pizza. Milan is a rich city, and full of Italians with exquisite taste. No way can you trade a second-rate pizza in that place! It would cause a riot. Ah but the thing is, there are lies, and then there are lies I’m not actually convinced there’s really any difference in taste between scotch beef steak and any other uk beef steak any more - if there ever was - but part of my cynicism comes from my discovery about oh god 30 years ago now that our food labelling ‘laws’ are so bloody warped i could take a truck of Friesians north of Gretna, unload them into a field rented for the purpose, have the abbatoir pick them up after seven days, take them to slaughter and have the meat labelled as Scotch beef even though it only stood there for a week. My source was the son of the farmer whose wife ran the B&B at which i was staying. One son ran an arable farm, the other ran a herd of Herefords iirc. The point being both he and his nearest neighbour who had a herd of Aberdeen Angus on their farm were rightly allowed to sell the meat as being “the meat of such cattle, raised in England” because it WAS, and yes the farm shop label ‘Aberdeen Angus Beef Reared In Buckinghamshire’ was apparently a selling point in itself, but both were less than impressed at tbe far more lax geographic regulations In the more extreme cases EU regulations allowed less than scrupulous meat traders to truck live animals huge distances to enjoy a premium price for what was in reality ‘locally slaughtered lamb etc’ which had only been in the locality in the truck bringing it to the slaughterhouse. Yes I'm aware farms in Buckinghamshire are pricy. It's where our Christmas turkeys come from. It's not far short of if you got them from Harrods.
Regarding the actual taste of the meat, according to some meat chefs I was listening to, the temperature profile of the cooking of a steak is critical and can make far more difference than which farm you get it from, so you can get the same steak, cook it two different ways and it will be completely different. The correct way though is pretty damn complicated. It reminds me of SMT ovens where you set the profile like as a graph.
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