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Post by Hutchyns on Mar 5, 2024 8:53:27 GMT
Don't the followers of most religions believe that following and implementing the teachings of God will be in the best interests of any and all Countries ?
It's surely just a matter of opinion as to whether any conflict of interest exists in the first place. I can't see that most religious people would acknowledge there's any choice to make.
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Post by Orac on Mar 5, 2024 8:57:27 GMT
There is no moral or ethical consideration. 'Freedom of religion' is, in the way you seem to mean it, a misnomer. There can't be an absolute principle of freedom of religion. 'Freedom of religion' can only exist stably between compatible religions. The idea came out of Christian dominated societies and was instituted with Christians in mind. I don't think you can apply this to Islam and Muslims, hence its relative absence in the middle east Freedom of religious practice would have to be subject to the law of the land. From what I've seen the vast majority of Muslims, and followers of all other faiths seem to practice their religion and obey the laws of the land without any problems. This is a platitude that fails to connect with my point. The primary purpose of a society is to maintain itself (its values), not to provide a venue and resources for someone else's counter-values. A society that wants to stably institute some liberties would not allow any hostile set of values a liberty likely to end in its own destruction (this is just common sense). In this case the liberty in question is pretty obvious - a democratic society can't allow any significant entry into its territory of another society hostile to those notions. |
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Post by buccaneer on Mar 5, 2024 9:00:20 GMT
So if two loyalties conflict, as for example and as we have seen before, Muslim people spitting on UK soldiers returning from the ME. You're okay with that? Well obviously I'm not OK with anyone spitting on anyone. But I would be OK with Muslims protesting. I would be ok with any Brit protesting the actions of their government. Burning the British flag, general intimidation and calling for Jihad. Do you count any of them as protesting? |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 5, 2024 9:00:56 GMT
Freedom of religious practice would have to be subject to the law of the land. From what I've seen the vast majority of Muslims, and followers of all other faiths seem to practice their religion and obey the laws of the land without any problems. This is a platitude that fails to connect with my point. The primary purpose of a society is to maintain itself (its values), not to provide a venue and resources for someone else's counter-values. A society that wants to stably institute some liberties would not allow any hostile set of values any liberty likely to end in its destruction (this is just common sense). In this case the liberty in question is pretty obvious - a democratic society can't allow any significant entry into it's territory of another society hostile to those notions. Ok but whilst I await the seemingly inevitable accusations of whataboutery you can surely see that this isn't exclusive to Islam? There any number of religious and political belief systems that on paper or in practice on occasions with tragic consequences, that are hostile to the core beliefs of liberal democracy. |
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Post by Orac on Mar 5, 2024 9:11:22 GMT
This is a platitude that fails to connect with my point. The primary purpose of a society is to maintain itself (its values), not to provide a venue and resources for someone else's counter-values. A society that wants to stably institute some liberties would not allow any hostile set of values any liberty likely to end in its destruction (this is just common sense). In this case the liberty in question is pretty obvious - a democratic society can't allow any significant entry into it's territory of another society hostile to those notions. There any number of religious and political belief systems that on paper or in practice on occasions with tragic consequences, that are hostile to the core beliefs of liberal democracy. Of course. Another example might be 'German National socialists' - whether most of them technically 'obey the law' or not, the entry of millions of such people into our territory would pose a threat to our society. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Mar 5, 2024 9:32:09 GMT
Ok but whilst I await the seemingly inevitable accusations of whataboutery you can surely see that this isn't exclusive to Islam? There any number of religious and political belief systems that on paper or in practice on occasions with tragic consequences, that are hostile to the core beliefs of liberal democracy. That's very true.
So what is the case for admitting adherents of such belief systems in very large numbers into any liberal democracy?
The four or five million Muslims in Britain, say, as just one example?
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 5, 2024 9:45:30 GMT
Ok but whilst I await the seemingly inevitable accusations of whataboutery you can surely see that this isn't exclusive to Islam? There any number of religious and political belief systems that on paper or in practice on occasions with tragic consequences, that are hostile to the core beliefs of liberal democracy. That's very true.
So what is the case for admitting adherents of such belief systems in very large numbers into any liberal democracy?
The four or five million Muslims in Britain, say, as just one example?
Well I'm not the one advocating outlawing specific belief systems so I don't have to make an argument for it. The vast majority of Muslims seem to be law abiding citizens. |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 5, 2024 9:47:24 GMT
There any number of religious and political belief systems that on paper or in practice on occasions with tragic consequences, that are hostile to the core beliefs of liberal democracy. Of course. Another example might be 'German National socialists' - whether most of them technically 'obey the law' or not, the entry of millions of such people into our territory would pose a threat to our society. Do my local conservative club members pose a threat to society because some of their fellow right wingers are at odds with our core values? |
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 5, 2024 9:50:12 GMT
Of course. Another example might be 'German National socialists' - whether most of them technically 'obey the law' or not, the entry of millions of such people into our territory would pose a threat to our society. Do my local conservative club members pose a threat to society because some of their fellow right wingers are at odds with our core values? What Conservatives are at odds with our core values? |
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Post by sheepy on Mar 5, 2024 9:50:32 GMT
That's very true.
So what is the case for admitting adherents of such belief systems in very large numbers into any liberal democracy?
The four or five million Muslims in Britain, say, as just one example?
Well I'm not the one advocating outlawing specific belief systems so I don't have to make an argument for it. The vast majority of Muslims seem to be law abiding citizens. Which law? as their belief system has its own law, which it could be said is not exactly in line with this invention of Liberal democracy? |
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Post by Dan Dare on Mar 5, 2024 9:51:56 GMT
That's very true.
So what is the case for admitting adherents of such belief systems in very large numbers into any liberal democracy?
The four or five million Muslims in Britain, say, as just one example?
Well I'm not the one advocating outlawing specific belief systems so I don't have to make an argument for it. The vast majority of Muslims seem to be law abiding citizens. Ah yes the good old 'Not all Muslims...' trope. The perennial standby for defenders of the indefensible. |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 5, 2024 9:59:51 GMT
Do my local conservative club members pose a threat to society because some of their fellow right wingers are at odds with our core values? What Conservatives are at odds with our core values? Well I've no way of knowing do I? So shall we outlaw the lot of them just to be on the safe side? |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 5, 2024 10:00:39 GMT
Well I'm not the one advocating outlawing specific belief systems so I don't have to make an argument for it. The vast majority of Muslims seem to be law abiding citizens. Ah yes the good old 'Not all Muslims...' trope. The perennial standby for defenders of the indefensible. The facts show that the vast majority of Muslims are law abiding citizens. |
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 5, 2024 10:03:35 GMT
What Conservatives are at odds with our core values? Well I've no way of knowing do I? So shall we outlaw the lot of them just to be on the safe side? so what leads you to believe this? - surely something must have given you the idea? |
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Post by sheepy on Mar 5, 2024 10:07:54 GMT
Thats three times I have asked the important questions in this thread and every time they get swept under the carpet because me thinks they have been sent out with a set viewpoint and don't actually have an answer. Me also thinks we will have to await somebody telling them the answers which will most likely be pure bullshit. As usual.
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