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Post by happyhornet on Mar 3, 2024 14:40:25 GMT
So do you take responsibility for the actions of everyone in your local community? No. However, my whole belief framework is western, not Muslim - my belief system doesn't often frame the victims of crimes as part of 'an enemy society that must be defeated by order of god' So do you take responsibility for the actions of all westerners? Should we judge you by the worst actions of your fellow westerners and assume some sort of complicity on your part? |
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Post by Dan Dare on Mar 3, 2024 14:43:05 GMT
HH mentioned Harold Shipman earlier, asking whether everyone who lived on the same street ought to be considered complicit in his misdeeds.
Zany is making enquiries along similar lines as well.
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Post by Orac on Mar 3, 2024 14:44:43 GMT
No. However, my whole belief framework is western, not Muslim - my belief system doesn't often frame the victims of crimes as part of 'an enemy society that must be defeated by order of god' So do you take responsibility for the actions of all westerners? No. Because my whole belief framework is western, not Muslim. If I believed (for instance) that many victims of crime were part of an enemy society that must be defeated by any means necessary, then symmetry would force me to internally 'accept responsibility'. However, if you asked me, and my belief system allowed me to lie, I would tell you that this is nothing to do with me - because this weakens you further. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Mar 3, 2024 14:49:41 GMT
What's your solution Red? Stop pandering to the whims of often aggressive minorities who don't share or agree with our customs, traditions or way of life. It should be made absolutely crystal clear to all minorities that it's up to them to fit in with us, not the other way around, this should be a minimum requirement. As we were told when we landed in Dhahran: You are Christians in an Islamic country, you must at all times observe Islamic laws customs and traditions. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Mar 3, 2024 14:49:50 GMT
A while ago now, but it's going to be difficult to make a case that attitudes have changed much in the interim, at least in a positive direction. I'd like to see our Islamic apologists here give it their best shot.
In 2006 Channel 4 conducted a major survey "Attitudes to Living in Britain - A Survey of Muslim Opinion". Among the more striking revelations were that 93% of respondents felt that their religion was 'all important' and that less than half felt that Britain was 'their country'. Around a third indicated that would prefer to live under Sharia law; other interesting findings included:
28% want Britain to become an Islamic state
78% agree that the people who published the 'Mohammed' cartoons should be prosecuted
68% agree that British people who insult Islam should be arrested and prosecuted
62% agree that freedom of speech which offends religious groups should be disallowed
45% believe that 9/11 was a conspiracy between America and Israel (51% of those aged 18-24)
36% believe that Diana was murdered to prevent her marrying an Arab
22% believe that the 7/7 London bombings were 'justified' (31% of those 18-44)
35% were not surprised that the 7/7 perpetrators were British-born Muslims (44% of those aged 18-24)
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Post by zanygame on Mar 3, 2024 15:23:26 GMT
Where we might agree is that BBC reporters carefully pick the refugees they interview deliberately picking those who look most deserving (Such as a man with two young children.) I think they do this to counter the current narrative that none are deserving. Indeed your accusations of me evidence this point, for the moment I suggest some asylum seekers are genuine you immediately claim I want to invite the world to live here. Firstly, well spotted. They do exactly that. This sort of bias is pretty hard to discern when you are sympathetic to the view being implied. They do this because they have a message they want you to receive that goes beyond the facts. They may consciously allow themselves to be deceived or even fabricate or exaggerate because they think that message is so important and moral that it overrides any moral duty for total honestly. One your second point - You aren't ONLY suggesting some of these 'asylum seekers' are genuine, you are indicating an action in response to this - namely that we do the work of sorting between the two groups. You do this knowing full well that committing to such an action in a way that makes sense will likely mean bringing them into the country and then finding ourselves unable to deport them. This is part of how the fraud works and so you are essentially arguing that the fraud be allowed (actually enforced wholesale) We have talked extensively about this before. All of the 'asylum' seekers in France who are trying to get into the UK, are attempting fraud. Why do we only see sympathetic renderings of the frauds. Why no sympathetic rendering of British people who don't want to be frauded and have their communities destroyed? The BBC clearly wades in on one side. Why? Can I point out firstly that I do not make the actual decisions. That said. MY idea was to open processing centres off shore. As for how it works now, this is neither my doing nor what I would do. Unfortunately being a thinking man means unlike you I can't just say do nothing and pretend it will go away. And making them Frances problem smacks of the kind of behaviour I do not want to be representative of us in Britain. Just a reminder that's what this thread is about, though its been bought back to immigration again! |
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Post by zanygame on Mar 3, 2024 15:27:09 GMT
So do you take responsibility for the actions of all westerners? No. Because my whole belief framework is western, not Muslim. If I believed (for instance) that many victims of crime were part of an enemy society that must be defeated by any means necessary, then symmetry would force me to internally 'accept responsibility'. However, if you asked me, and my belief system allowed me to lie, I would tell you that this is nothing to do with me - because this weakens you further. That's you making up what they think. If a Muslim is killed can I assume you support their murderer based on the idea that Brits think Muslims are the enemy among us? |
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Post by zanygame on Mar 3, 2024 15:36:16 GMT
What's your solution Red? Stop pandering to the whims of often aggressive minorities who don't share or agree with our customs, traditions or way of life. It should be made absolutely crystal clear to all minorities that it's up to them to fit in with us, not the other way around, this should be a minimum requirement. As we were told when we landed in Dhahran: You are Christians in an Islamic country, you must at all times observe Islamic laws customs and traditions. I thought we had something like that. What values do these Muslims you know not sign up to? There are 3.8 million Muslims in this country, how many are part of your aggressive minorities? Would you expect Muslims living here to keep their mouths shut over the 30,000 killed in Palestine? If you swapped the word Religion for the word Country, then could I expect you to keep your mouth shut if the Spanish government killed 5,000 Brits in Gibraltar on the premise they were after some terrorists hiding there? Or would you be ought on the streets demanding your government condemn such behaviour? |
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Post by Red Rackham on Mar 3, 2024 15:41:48 GMT
Stop pandering to the whims of often aggressive minorities who don't share or agree with our customs, traditions or way of life. It should be made absolutely crystal clear to all minorities that it's up to them to fit in with us, not the other way around, this should be a minimum requirement. As we were told when we landed in Dhahran: You are Christians in an Islamic country, you must at all times observe Islamic laws customs and traditions. I thought we had something like that. What values do these Muslims you know not sign up to? There are 3.8 million Muslims in this country, how many are part of your aggressive minorities? Would you expect Muslims living here to keep their mouths shut over the 30,000 killed in Palestine? If you swapped the word Religion for the word Country, then could I expect you to keep your mouth shut if the Spanish government killed 5,000 Brits in Gibraltar on the premise they were after some terrorists hiding there? Or would you be ought on the streets demanding your government condemn such behaviour? We appear to be moving in circles. |
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Post by Bentley on Mar 3, 2024 15:42:39 GMT
I did not say that I said that you have the advantage that if you so wish you could describe yourself as an ethnic minority. As a whole group ethnic minorities have greater unemployment, the lie that that is due to 'racism' of any sort is exposed by the fact that there several ethnic minority groups who have higher levels of employment than the white British "British citizens from ethnic minority backgrounds have to send, on average, 60% more job applications to get a positive response from employers compared to their white counterparts, according to researchers at Nuffield College's Centre for Social Investigation (CSI)." "Compared to White British applicants, people of: Pakistani heritage had to make 70% more applications Nigerian and South Asian heritage 80% more applications Middle Eastern and north African heritage 90% more applications" www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46927417Unless you are claiming Human Resources departments across the land are deliberately trying to damage their employers by denying them the best candidates then the obvious conclusion is that statistically , those candidates would be the worst ones . On the same principle that one might expect 100% of 65year old men would be rejected out of hand for a job as a lap dancer . |
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Post by Bentley on Mar 3, 2024 15:48:17 GMT
I could work and live alongside members of the Church of Satan and Scientologists but I couldn’t trust them entirely.
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Post by thomas on Mar 3, 2024 15:48:23 GMT
Stop pandering to the whims of often aggressive minorities who don't share or agree with our customs, traditions or way of life. It should be made absolutely crystal clear to all minorities that it's up to them to fit in with us, not the other way around, this should be a minimum requirement. As we were told when we landed in Dhahran: You are Christians in an Islamic country, you must at all times observe Islamic laws customs and traditions. I thought we had something like that. What values do these Muslims you know not sign up to? There are 3.8 million Muslims in this country, how many are part of your aggressive minorities? Would you expect Muslims living here to keep their mouths shut over the 30,000 killed in Palestine? If you swapped the word Religion for the word Country, then could I expect you to keep your mouth shut if the Spanish government killed 5,000 Brits in Gibraltar on the premise they were after some terrorists hiding there? Or would you be ought on the streets demanding your government condemn such behaviour? I grew up with the Pakistani muslim community in govan Glasgow and many of them were more Scottish than the Scottish. There are good and bad in every race religion culture nation and creed. The muslims in the uk today merely appear to be the latest whipping boys that are being blamed for all the woes of the world. Wee rishi sunak didnt appear to take kindly to George galloway being elected the other day , with talks of a crackdown on democracy painted as protecting democracy , simply because of a minor election result he didnt like. All because the voters there didnt vote in lab/lib/tory . The muslims in the uk have every right to vote in who they like , and protest about what they like. You can see why the tories are facing electoral wipeout in both scotland and England , with the tories predicted to lose around 60% of their Scottish 2019 voters alone . This appears to be all wee Rishi sunak has left , screaming about muslims .Peter oborne hit the nail on the head about the mass hysteria about radical islam wanting to take over the uk nations , inflamed by wee Rishi and his mate keir starmer. Im simply shocked how people who appear to me to be relatively intelligent actually believe the guff these politicians come out with. |
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Post by thomas on Mar 3, 2024 15:59:25 GMT
I could work and live alongside members of the Church of Satan and Scientologists but I couldn’t trust them entirely. personally I trust no one at first sight . Trust isnt a right , it has to be earned. I know muslims I trust , and christians I dont. Its not the race , religion culture or creed its the individual. |
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Post by zanygame on Mar 3, 2024 16:00:06 GMT
I thought we had something like that. What values do these Muslims you know not sign up to? There are 3.8 million Muslims in this country, how many are part of your aggressive minorities? Would you expect Muslims living here to keep their mouths shut over the 30,000 killed in Palestine? If you swapped the word Religion for the word Country, then could I expect you to keep your mouth shut if the Spanish government killed 5,000 Brits in Gibraltar on the premise they were after some terrorists hiding there? Or would you be ought on the streets demanding your government condemn such behaviour? We appear to be moving in circles. Perhaps if you answered we might move forward. |
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Post by Orac on Mar 3, 2024 16:13:23 GMT
No. Because my whole belief framework is western, not Muslim. If I believed (for instance) that many victims of crime were part of an enemy society that must be defeated by any means necessary, then symmetry would force me to internally 'accept responsibility'. However, if you asked me, and my belief system allowed me to lie, I would tell you that this is nothing to do with me - because this weakens you further. That's you making up what they think. If a Muslim is killed can I assume you support their murderer based on the idea that Brits think Muslims are the enemy among us? 'Making up what i think' = 'giving you my opinion' btw no, because western values don't (currently) support ,'by any means necessary' or 'god commands they be defeated'. I also don't (for instance) believe Muslim homelands should be demographically raided until their societies are destroyed and replaced. My preferred 'final solution' is a peaceful social technology known as a border. |
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