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Post by sandypine on Mar 2, 2024 9:35:48 GMT
When I was born there were less than 50,000 Muslims in this non-islamic country. Today there are 4 million, that's the official figure, who knows what the actual figure might be. And as their numbers grow the more aggressive and demanding they become. Muslims do not integrate, islam is a throwback to the dark ages and is incompatible with anything other than islam. So the issue is the existence of people who hold views and beliefs you disagree with? I suspect you may have more in common with muslim extremists than you realise. And it's true, some muslims don't integrate, but plenty do, if you don't recognise the latter as British/English then you've got no business complaining about lack of integration, you're part of the problem. The issue is with a religious belief that actively defines a them and us situation. Unlike Christianity or Judaism which have little influence on the politics as a group in contemporary Britain we can see that the followers of this faith have a tendency, on specific political issues, to become a block power base. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Mar 2, 2024 9:37:39 GMT
You can call yourself anything you want. That doesn't make it so, nor does it influence how others see you. For example, a man in a dress who calls himself Wendy is still a bloke. I don't call myself English, I am English. What positive outcome are you trying to achieve by telling me otherwise? Probably the same thing as an actual Irish person in Ireland would say if confronted by an immigrant of English extraction. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Mar 2, 2024 9:38:42 GMT
The issue is with a religious belief that actively defines a them and us situation that unlike Christianity or Judaism have in contemporary Britain little influence on the politics as a group. We can see that the followers of this faith have a tendency, on specific political issues, to become a block power base. And Jews don't? |
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Post by zanygame on Mar 2, 2024 9:39:06 GMT
I think George Galloway is right in that a large number of ordinary Brits like me are dismayed by our countries tacit support for Israels killing of 30,000 Palestinians in their supposed hunt for Hamas. And NO, I'm not a Muslim, not a funny colour. Would you support your British government if they killed 30,000 Northern Ireland citizens in their hunt for the IRA? And as he points out that voice is all but silent in our countries press. I think you hint at the fragmentation being along Muslim of immigrant lines, but I think the divisions are very different.
Should we? Or should we stand for what's right no matter what that is? I think your version is more pragmatic, but in that case we should remain silent on world affairs. Become little England.
My view has historically been that our good name for being fair and helping the weak bought us wealth and trade far more than it cost us.
I think they are simply an easy target to point Joe public at to avoid them looking in the "wrong" places.
(Easy in that they are nicely coloured or dressed to show up)
Look at Hitler blaming the Jews for Germanies ills. How was he able to do that.
And how do we view that historically.
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 2, 2024 9:42:24 GMT
I don't call myself English, I am English. What positive outcome are you trying to achieve by telling me otherwise? For three hundred years the British were in India, some were the result of ten generations of people being born in that country. To the Indians they were never Indian they were always the British. If a British man had said I am Indian the big question is would he have been accepted as such by the overwhelming majority of Indians? I have no idea what the opinion of people who I've never met, in your hypothetical scenario, would be. Nor do I see how it's relevant, you don't justify intolerance and bullying by pointing to another (Albeit hypothetical) example of it. |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 2, 2024 9:43:27 GMT
So the issue is the existence of people who hold views and beliefs you disagree with? I suspect you may have more in common with muslim extremists than you realise. And it's true, some muslims don't integrate, but plenty do, if you don't recognise the latter as British/English then you've got no business complaining about lack of integration, you're part of the problem. The issue is with a religious belief that actively defines a them and us situation. Unlike Christianity or Judaism which have little influence on the politics as a group in contemporary Britain we can see that the followers of this faith have a tendency, on specific political issues, to become a block power base. You've repeatedly denied me my English identity because of an accident of birth and then complain about an us them mentality? |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 2, 2024 9:44:47 GMT
I don't call myself English, I am English. What positive outcome are you trying to achieve by telling me otherwise? Probably the same thing as an actual Irish person in Ireland would say if confronted by an immigrant of English extraction. Two wrongs make a right eh? I notice you use the term "actual Irish", does that imply I'm not? So I can't be English or Irish according to you? |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 2, 2024 9:52:26 GMT
When you meet other cultures you usually find they share a great many similarities with you unless you look for the differences. Apparently the prime minister gave an impromptu speech last night in which he lamented 'the extremists who are trying to tear us apart'.
He doesn't seem to have noticed that British society is already fragmented along a number of deep and widening fault-lines into mutually antagonistic social, cultural, ethnic and even economic groups that really don't get along with each other. Many of them are not even of domestic origin. 'Extremists' have had very little to do with it.
He himself is a prominent symbol of that ongoing and accelerating process.
And by denying fully integrated English people of immigrant extraction their national identity you are part of the problem. Do you honestly not see that? |
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Post by zanygame on Mar 2, 2024 9:57:53 GMT
Seriously? Try building a house on someone else's land and see where it gets you. Even the right to roam is seriously curtailed nowadays. I used to go wild camping but gave up as there was nowhere left to do it. Your example of the police having rights is frankly pathetic. What's that got to do with whether they want to sell it or not? I'm telling you that the rich who own a large percentage of the land in this country encourage the government they have bought to allow more immigrants in to put pressure on building land availability to make more from the tiny bits they sell to the plebs. THEY WANT THE IMMIGRANTS BECAUSE IT MAKES THEM RICH. YOU HAVE NO SAY. I am describing reality. Demonstrate it is not reality before you start name calling. Your only right as a Brit is to stay in this country, you have no right to the land or even a place to live. |
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Post by zanygame on Mar 2, 2024 10:05:23 GMT
So the issue is the existence of people who hold views and beliefs you disagree with? I suspect you may have more in common with muslim extremists than you realise. And it's true, some muslims don't integrate, but plenty do, if you don't recognise the latter as British/English then you've got no business complaining about lack of integration, you're part of the problem. Unlike Christianity or Judaism which have little influence on the politics as a group in contemporary Britain we can see that the followers of this faith have a tendency, on specific political issues, to become a block power base. Only in your head. A quick sum this morning, I employ about 45 people who are likely to be Muslim. We never discuss their religion and it has no effect on their work. They like a laugh and do their jobs. They don't stop twice a day to face mecca no long for Jihad or sharia law. You want them to be different so you can pass the buck for this countries failures onto a third party. You've been suckered. Truth is this countries ills are due to bad management and greed. But the people who influence you with their money are the very ones you keep electing. There's a very good reason we don't trust our politicians its because we keep electing crooks who rip us off. |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 2, 2024 10:10:56 GMT
The issue is with a religious belief that actively defines a them and us situation. Unlike Christianity or Judaism which have little influence on the politics as a group in contemporary Britain we can see that the followers of this faith have a tendency, on specific political issues, to become a block power base. Only in your head. A quick sum this morning, I employ about 45 people who are likely to be Muslim. We never discuss their religion and it has no effect on their work. They like a laugh and do their jobs. They don't stop twice a day to face mecca no long for Jihad or sharia law. You want them to be different so you can pass the buck for this countries failures onto a third party. You've been suckered. Truth is this countries ills are due to bad management and greed. But the people who influence you with their money are the very ones you keep electing. There's a very good reason we don't trust our politicians its because we keep electing crooks who rip us off. Comes back to what I was saying earlier on this thread about scapegoating. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Mar 2, 2024 10:14:25 GMT
I don't know how you came to make such a calculation. Certainly Britain didn't enjoy a good name for being fair and helping the weak during the period in which it was acquiring and ruling its Empire. It isn't immediately obvious that such extreme altruism brings with it great wealth. There have to be other attributes at play as well.
You bring up Hitler, as is more or less obligatory here at some stage during a discussion, but perhaps you didn't know that he was a great admirer of the British Empire and the way it which it was managed. He said many times that British rule in India would provide the template for subduing and controlling the new territories he was planning to conquer in the east.
As for the Jews, are you able to name any country in which their arrival has been greeted with hosannas and palm leaves strewn in the streets? Certainly Britain wouldn't have been one of them. Even before he came up with the bonzer wheeze of creating a Jewish homeland in Palestine Arthur Balfour was trying to ship them off to Uganda, on the basis of 'anywhere but here'. France and Poland had their versions of the 'Madagascar Plan' and even the Soviet Union created its own Jewish Autonomous Oblast in the Russian Far East about as far away from Moscow as you can get. And so on and so forth.
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Post by Dan Dare on Mar 2, 2024 10:21:06 GMT
Probably the same thing as an actual Irish person in Ireland would say if confronted by an immigrant of English extraction. Two wrongs make a right eh? I notice you use the term "actual Irish", does that imply I'm not? So I can't be English or Irish according to you? Why not put a sock in it?
We've all had more than enough of your maunderings about what you perceive as your 'national identity'.
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Post by sandypine on Mar 2, 2024 10:25:37 GMT
The issue is with a religious belief that actively defines a them and us situation that unlike Christianity or Judaism have in contemporary Britain little influence on the politics as a group. We can see that the followers of this faith have a tendency, on specific political issues, to become a block power base. And Jews don't? In terms of Judaism I do not think they do, when one moves onto race that is a far more complex issue and at the moment I am restricting my viewpoint to religious groups. Of course Judaism is small in number and Christianity is wide in belief and reducing in number whereas Islam is fairly narrow in belief and increasing in number. |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 2, 2024 10:25:47 GMT
Two wrongs make a right eh? I notice you use the term "actual Irish", does that imply I'm not? So I can't be English or Irish according to you? Why not put a sock in it?
We've all had more than enough of your maunderings about what you perceive as your 'national identity'.
Can't answer the question eh? Noted. |
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