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Post by see2 on Feb 21, 2024 13:29:18 GMT
There are two types of thought - Fast thinking (dubbed System 1 by Kahneman) is unconscious, instinctive. Fast thinking results in snap judgments. Slow thinking (System 2) is what most of us would consider actual thought: it’s conscious, deliberative, and mostly rational. They take place in different parts of the brain. When you learn to play a musical instrument you start off by using System 2 and you play slowly and think about everything you do - but it is slow. When you've learnt to play the process has moved to a different part of the brain and you no longer consciously think about it and it's much faster - and more accurate. If watch a tennis player playing brilliantly until he gets match point and the "choking" as they call it, what's happened is that he was playing using system 2 until he got to match point - at which point he begins to play carefully (thinking about shots). In other words he's reverted to system 1 - which is what he used as a beginner. Yes, system 1, is the sensory system which is faster than the logical system. Example of sensory speed, take being busy doing some work when a sudden unexpected loud bang takes place behind you, there is an almost instant jump and a tightening up of the chest as the heart increases its pumping action, pumping adrenalin etc. into the system. Followed by the thinking brain in system 2, saying what was that. I play bowls and I know when I'm playing well I'm playing through instinct, sensory play system1. the moment I try to do the impossible by thinking how much to allow for the curve of the ball (different from green to green,) and the speed of the ball, then I lose my accuracy. You are right its like two different worlds. I have not read anything by Kahneman, but I just might do that. |
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Post by Orac on Feb 21, 2024 13:34:21 GMT
I disagree. It is not the same thing. A conscience can prompt a person to act against their training and against their best interests socially. Yes. This is the difference between second level training and a primitive but flawed conscience in certain peer group circumstances where the individual will go with the establishment or power leader and the kind of individual who will respond to some inner empathic motivation. This is why so many just follow the leader or extant belief system when it comes to deciding who is to blame for certain atrocities in political and social circumstances. It is the individual altruist who is capable and willing to stand against what we might term "evil" but that individual seldom has much support as the average human behaves from herd instinct and ingrained peer group behavioural responses. The individual does not. He or she responds to an inner empathic sense of right and wrong. Many of these individuals have faced the noose, the poisoned cup, the bullet and the fire, for being seen as "different" and a threat to the establishment. In our time that individual will face the social media troll. It's a really interesting thing to talk about because it seems to me like the core of the thing is somewhat separate from the normal world. Conscience is the facility (or tendency) to feel a more moral course is preferable despite another being more in your interests. Example - conscience is what would prevent a person stealing even if they know for a fact they would not get caught if they did so. The conscience would calculate the unfair loss for another as unacceptable. Trained vs real is very interesting debate. I wonder how many would say that ChatGP type AI, that behaved conscientiously, actually had a conscience? |
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Post by steppenwolf on Feb 21, 2024 13:53:54 GMT
There are two types of thought - Fast thinking (dubbed System 1 by Kahneman) is unconscious, instinctive. Fast thinking results in snap judgments. Slow thinking (System 2) is what most of us would consider actual thought: it’s conscious, deliberative, and mostly rational. They take place in different parts of the brain. When you learn to play a musical instrument you start off by using System 2 and you play slowly and think about everything you do - but it is slow. When you've learnt to play the process has moved to a different part of the brain and you no longer consciously think about it and it's much faster - and more accurate. If watch a tennis player playing brilliantly until he gets match point and the "choking" as they call it, what's happened is that he was playing using system 2 until he got to match point - at which point he begins to play carefully (thinking about shots). In other words he's reverted to system 1 - which is what he used as a beginner. Yes, system 1, is the sensory system which is faster than the logical system. Example of sensory speed, take being busy doing some work when a sudden unexpected loud bang takes place behind you, there is an almost instant jump and a tightening up of the chest as the heart increases its pumping action, pumping adrenalin etc. into the system. Followed by the thinking brain in system 2, saying what was that. I play bowls and I know when I'm playing well I'm playing through instinct, sensory play system1. the moment I try to do the impossible by thinking how much to allow for the curve of the ball (different from green to green,) and the speed of the ball, then I lose my accuracy. You are right its like two different worlds. I have not read anything by Kahneman, but I just might do that. There was a video on a music site that i follow where they attached electrodes to a beginner pianist's brain and watched as the bits of brain that lit up changed as he became more proficient. The process of learning something is basically the process of starting by using the conscious and eventually using the subconscious. |
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Post by Vanna on Feb 21, 2024 15:16:56 GMT
Yes. This is the difference between second level training and a primitive but flawed conscience in certain peer group circumstances where the individual will go with the establishment or power leader and the kind of individual who will respond to some inner empathic motivation. This is why so many just follow the leader or extant belief system when it comes to deciding who is to blame for certain atrocities in political and social circumstances. It is the individual altruist who is capable and willing to stand against what we might term "evil" but that individual seldom has much support as the average human behaves from herd instinct and ingrained peer group behavioural responses. The individual does not. He or she responds to an inner empathic sense of right and wrong. Many of these individuals have faced the noose, the poisoned cup, the bullet and the fire, for being seen as "different" and a threat to the establishment. In our time that individual will face the social media troll. It's a really interesting thing to talk about because it seems to me like the core of the thing is somewhat separate from the normal world. Conscience is the facility (or tendency) to feel a more moral course is preferable despite another being more in your interests. Example - conscience is what would prevent a person stealing even if they know for a fact they would not get caught if they did so. The conscience would calculate the unfair loss for another as unacceptable. Trained vs real is very interesting debate. I wonder how many would say that ChatGP type AI, that behaved conscientiously, actually had a conscience? You could program AI to respond as though it had a conscience in the same way most people are programmed by their cultural contexts, but when it comes to independent thinking on ethical matters AI would almost certainly be similar to most culturally programmed people. Prince William has just done a remarkably independent thing by speaking out, against all protocol and context, on the horrific situation in the Hamas/Israel conflict. I hope he can retain his cool amid voices of condemnation. If he can then Nature has finally produced a future monarch with balls and empathy and the intelligence to carry these through. |
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Post by Monroe on Feb 25, 2024 20:35:11 GMT
Hi Vanna .. I have been lookimg at this forum recently and then and saw this feature. You used it too. Hope you and yours are well down there in the sunshine country.
I still miss my adopted "Yodel" country, but Canada has to do. Brrrrrr.
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Post by Orac on Feb 25, 2024 21:26:20 GMT
Monroe!
Welcome back. I hope you are well
mags
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Post by Monroe on Feb 25, 2024 21:43:05 GMT
Hi Mags .. it's been quite a long time gone this time. Meanwhile the world went to Hell in a handbasket. Will pop in from time to time.
But yes, I have dumped people that refuse to see the proven facts .. people here in Ontario are Trudeau-dumbed down. Drives me nuts.
TTFN
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Post by Monroe on Feb 25, 2024 21:46:13 GMT
Oops .. wrong thread. lolllss
Comment above refers to falling out with people over politics .. and I sure have. :-)
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Post by Orac on Feb 25, 2024 22:08:21 GMT
Monroe, the pattern is obvious here - you left the forum, your view went unrecorded and things started plummeting downhill almost immediately
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Post by Vanna on Feb 26, 2024 4:38:59 GMT
Hi Monroe. We are living in rather torrid times where I am. But Nature is still beautiful. We lost our German Shepherd to bone cancer in the interim. Nice to see you on here. I was just thinking about you the other day and wondering how you are. The world has gone almost completely mad, sadly. I left this forum but return from time to time on the free entry Mind Zone as I sort of hoped that this was a topic where one might avoid some of the unpleasantness the internet has become famous for.  |
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Post by Monroe on Feb 26, 2024 17:11:51 GMT
HI Vanna, good to hear from you. So Sad about Fylkiru as I remember his cute puppy pictures and stories of him growing up.. e.g. running away from falling floor mops and being carried around in your apron plus whomping you in the head too. lolls.
We will get some stick about being off-topic, but Hey, it's a quiet thread. People must be examining their consciences eh.
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Post by Vanna on Feb 27, 2024 4:03:13 GMT
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Post by Red Rackham on Feb 27, 2024 5:30:41 GMT
Vanna and Monroe! LOL, I don't believe it, oh it's like old times. Ladies for Christ sake get on the forum, we need some female common sense, Dappy tries but in spite of the operation he's just not doing it. Come on you know it makes sense...  |
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Post by Vanna on Feb 27, 2024 7:25:39 GMT
Old times were good, I admit.
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