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Post by Orac on Feb 20, 2024 11:40:09 GMT
I disagree. It is not the same thing. A conscience can prompt a person to act against their training and against their best interests socially. I think what you are describing is a conflict of training rather than a conscience . I disagree. A conscience is active and ruminating - self examining. While all the behaviors can be mimicked, the internal process itself is almost the opposite of being trained. I said earlier, it can't be measured and this is the dead end we arrive at in such cases
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Feb 20, 2024 11:42:18 GMT
Take away a spiritual element and I think human psyche is based on fear and greed ( needed to survive and reproduce) so conscience must be an evolved attribute that allowed us to live in social groups... Yes. By animal standards, humans are relatively puny and vulnerable. Our superiority is mainly in our ability to band together. So if we don't look out for others we won't have a group. And if we don't have a group, then there's no one to look out for us.
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Post by Bentley on Feb 20, 2024 11:45:21 GMT
Take away a spiritual element and I think human psyche is based on fear and greed ( needed to survive and reproduce) so conscience must be an evolved attribute that allowed us to live in social groups... Yes. By animal standards, humans are relatively puny and vulnerable. Our superiority is mainly in our ability to band together. So if we don't look out for others we won't have a group. And if we don't have a group, then there's no one to look out for us. Indeed. Conscience could just be a fettling of the instinct to nurture offspring to nurturing the group.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Feb 20, 2024 12:14:53 GMT
As far as modern psychiatry can tell, there are some people who appear to have no conscience... I'd suggest that it's probably common amongst criminals. But even they are totally dependent on the fact that the rest of society has a collective conscience (laws etc). That's the main reason that we don't simply kill criminals (although in some cultures clearly they do - making the lack of conscience even more of an evolutionary dead-end).
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Post by Orac on Feb 20, 2024 12:18:14 GMT
As far as modern psychiatry can tell, there are some people who appear to have no conscience... I'd suggest that it's probably common amongst criminals. But even they are totally dependent on the fact that the rest of society has a collective conscience (laws etc). That's the main reason that we don't simply kill criminals (although in some cultures clearly they do - making the lack of conscience even more of an evolutionary dead-end). Yes! Arguably, removing the death penalty has an effect on selection and maybe changes the balance between criminal and non criminal personality types
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Post by see2 on Feb 20, 2024 16:52:11 GMT
Some good explanations posted above. How do people describe what used to be called 'the subconscious mind' and is now referred to as 'the unconscious mind'?
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Post by Bentley on Feb 20, 2024 16:59:20 GMT
I think of it as the unconscious being the car and the conscious being the driver . The driver is only a small part of the process but acts as if they are the process .
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Post by johnofgwent on Feb 20, 2024 18:04:50 GMT
Some good explanations posted above. How do people describe what used to be called 'the subconscious mind' and is now referred to as 'the unconscious mind'? Ok there are four states of learning and expertise Unconscious incompetence - you can’t do it and don't know you need to. Conscious incompetence - you still cant do it, but you know that. You haven’t passed your driving test conscious competence - you can do it but you have to think about it. You’re on P plates Unconscioys competence - you do it without thinking. After an hour you get to s road junction and think ‘which way now’ having driven the last hour on autopilot thinking about something quite different
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2024 20:34:03 GMT
What is the Human conscience, how does it work? Are the human conscience and the soul the same thing? I have studied psychology in the past. But also believe in a soul. In terms of psychology, conscience is what they refer to as a super ego. It is something we have evolved to aid us in working together as a cooperative species, a pack animal. We learn what is right and wrong and by a mixture of evolutionary predispositions and being told what is right and wrong we internalise a set of rules to live by, a moral code. If we then offend against that code, we feel guilt which we experience as an unpleasant emotion. No one enjoys feeling guilt and most of us would prefer to avoid feeling guilty. If however we do good in a way that conforms to our inner moral code, we feel an enhanced sense of self worth, perhaps even a little pride. And overall this feels good. We experience it as a pleasant feeling. These positive feelings based upon adhering to a moral code are also encouraged by emotions such as empathy for others, and a general predisposition to give a shit about each other. Sociopaths are very much aberrations in that they have no moral code, no feelings of guilt, no empathy at all, no internalised conscience. They lack a super ego, a conscience, but they are not how we are meant to be. When it comes to a soul, I believe life is where the spiritual and material realms intersect, and the soul is the spiritual aspect of us. I believe that spirit and matter interconnect most profoundly in our conscience, our super ego. That a sociopath appears to have no conscience, ie super ego, is highly suggestive to me of a disconnect between soul and body. Somehow the soul is missing. A sociopath might be quite literally soulless. But of course when we come to such matters we are discussing matters of faith which cannot perhaps yet be proven one way or the other. Why a living biological entity should be soulless is something of an enigma. I am still grasping at inner truths without knowing all the answers.
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Post by wapentake on Feb 20, 2024 20:41:26 GMT
What is the Human conscience, how does it work? Are the human conscience and the soul the same thing? I have studied psychology in the past. But also believe in a soul. In terms of psychology, conscience is what they refer to as a super ego. It is something we have evolved to aid us in working together as a cooperative species, a pack animal. We learn what is right and wrong and by a mixture of evolutionary predispositions and being told what is right and wrong we internalise a set of rules to live by, a moral code. If we then offend against that code, we feel guilt which we experience as an unpleasant emotion. No one enjoys feeling guilt and most of us would prefer to avoid feeling guilty. If however we do good in a way that conforms to our inner moral code, we feel an enhanced sense of self worth, perhaps even a little pride. And overall this feels good. We experience it as a pleasant feeling. These positive feelings based upon adhering to a moral code are also encouraged by emotions such as empathy for others, and a general predisposition to give a shit about each other. Sociopaths are very much aberrations in that they have no moral code, no feelings of guilt, no empathy at all, no internalised conscience. They lack a super ego, a conscience, but they are not how we are meant to be. When it comes to a soul, I believe life is where the spiritual and material realms intersect, and the soul is the spiritual aspect of us. I believe that spirit and matter interconnect most profoundly in our conscience, our super ego. That a sociopath appears to have no conscience, ie super ego, is highly suggestive to me of a disconnect between soul and body. Somehow the soul is missing. A sociopath might be quite literally soulless. But of course when we come to such matters we are discussing matters of faith which cannot perhaps yet be proven one way or the other. Why a living biological entity should be soulless is something of an enigma. I am still grasping at inner truths without knowing all the answers. Tbh Steve I think somebody being a sociopath is no different from someone being born an albino,conjoined twins Down’s syndrome or whatever,the human being can be a hostage to birth defects.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2024 21:01:53 GMT
Take away a spiritual element and I think human psyche is based on fear and greed ( needed to survive and reproduce) so conscience must be an evolved attribute that allowed us to live in social groups... Yes. By animal standards, humans are relatively puny and vulnerable. Our superiority is mainly in our ability to band together. So if we don't look out for others we won't have a group. And if we don't have a group, then there's no one to look out for us. We have a number of attributes that make us what we are. Altruism and compassion as a default setting so that the fact that we tend to care for and support each other is a big part of our success. So too is our intelligence, our ability to imagine things in our heads about how to react to certain situations for positive outcomes. And our ability to communicate ideas and process the ideas of others, for which speech itself is an incredible evolutionary tool. Learning to think in the abstract, and to talk, are by far our greatest evolutionary assets. We have also learned to understand each other to an incredible extent, able to plot and plan based on how others are likely to think and respond in certain situations. Like the guy who has an interest in the same female we fancy. We are able to imagine how he might think in certain situations, informed by any knowledge we might have about his character, and his emotional and intellectual state, and formulate strategies that might appeal to the desired female and minimise the appeal of our rival. Knowing that he will be doing the same in a battle of wits And we also have to figure out how she as another thinking being like us might respond or react to certain situations. We can use our imaginations to test run certain plans or ways of proceeding, itself informed by past experience for which we draw on our memories. We are all highly adept and intelligent social animals, able to understand what others might think and feel in certain situations, and develop plans based on that knowledge. We broadly know what sort of thing is likely to make someone feel angry, or amused, or sad, or sympathetic. We can envisage the emotional states of others. So not just intellectually, but emotionally and socially we are a highly advanced and evolved species, able to understand and manipulate each others' thinking, emotions, thought processes and social interactions. As emotionally, socially, and intellectually advanced beings, our ability to understand how each other thinks and plan accordingly is really quite incredible when we think about it
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Post by Vanna on Feb 21, 2024 4:53:24 GMT
You might not be able to measure it but its the same thing . Someone who acts out of care has been trained in their upbringing to act in such a way . Their conscience is what they have learned on the way to making that decision . Exactly the same as our canine friends its an extension of right and wrong I disagree. It is not the same thing. A conscience can prompt a person to act against their training and against their best interests socially. Yes. This is the difference between second level training and a primitive but flawed conscience in certain peer group circumstances where the individual will go with the establishment or power leader and the kind of individual who will respond to some inner empathic motivation. This is why so many just follow the leader or extant belief system when it comes to deciding who is to blame for certain atrocities in political and social circumstances. It is the individual altruist who is capable and willing to stand against what we might term "evil" but that individual seldom has much support as the average human behaves from herd instinct and ingrained peer group behavioural responses. The individual does not. He or she responds to an inner empathic sense of right and wrong. Many of these individuals have faced the noose, the poisoned cup, the bullet and the fire, for being seen as "different" and a threat to the establishment. In our time that individual will face the social media troll.
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Post by steppenwolf on Feb 21, 2024 7:21:50 GMT
There are two types of thought - Fast thinking (dubbed System 1 by Kahneman) is unconscious, instinctive. Fast thinking results in snap judgments. Slow thinking (System 2) is what most of us would consider actual thought: it’s conscious, deliberative, and mostly rational.
They take place in different parts of the brain. When you learn to play a musical instrument you start off by using System 2 and you play slowly and think about everything you do - but it is slow. When you've learnt to play the process has moved to a different part of the brain and you no longer consciously think about it and it's much faster - and more accurate.
If watch a tennis player playing brilliantly until he gets match point and the "choking" as they call it, what's happened is that he was playing using system 2 until he got to match point - at which point he begins to play carefully (thinking about shots). In other words he's reverted to system 1 - which is what he used as a beginner.
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Post by piglet on Feb 21, 2024 11:16:24 GMT
People without a conscience are primitive souls, they are unable to process consequences, so like Steppenwolf says act unconsciously. They cannot feel the pain of others, or directly link their own pain to their actions, like a dog bites another dog, who then bites back.
Etc, indeed, some, most, cause disruption, pain because it is entertaining, enjoyable, it sates a need, maybe repaying old wounds stupidly, or because they like it. Trying to get a big cat not to bite you is impossible if its hungry. Talk to any inmate in high security, try and get them to be sociable, not destructive.
The good news is that having a conscience is good, you are on an upward trend.
Maybe survival, fighting for it is not good. There is the Buddhist story of a prince walking in a forest and he comes across a starving tiger, and he offers the tiger his arm to eat.
Maybe the way to become a better soul is to not play the survival game, maybe once you give it up, you wont have to play anymore. On some level, the tiger may register sacrifice, and take a step to something better. There is film of Wildebeest protecting other wildebeest from predators, putting themselves at risk.
Selflessness does exist in the animal world.
As for conscieness, being aware of yourself, no one knows what it is.
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Post by see2 on Feb 21, 2024 12:58:45 GMT
What is the Human conscience, how does it work? Are the human conscience and the soul the same thing? I have studied psychology in the past. But also believe in a soul. In terms of psychology, conscience is what they refer to as a super ego. It is something we have evolved to aid us in working together as a cooperative species, a pack animal. We learn what is right and wrong and by a mixture of evolutionary predispositions and being told what is right and wrong we internalise a set of rules to live by, a moral code. If we then offend against that code, we feel guilt which we experience as an unpleasant emotion. No one enjoys feeling guilt and most of us would prefer to avoid feeling guilty. If however we do good in a way that conforms to our inner moral code, we feel an enhanced sense of self worth, perhaps even a little pride. And overall this feels good. We experience it as a pleasant feeling. These positive feelings based upon adhering to a moral code are also encouraged by emotions such as empathy for others, and a general predisposition to give a shit about each other. Sociopaths are very much aberrations in that they have no moral code, no feelings of guilt, no empathy at all, no internalised conscience. They lack a super ego, a conscience, but they are not how we are meant to be. When it comes to a soul, I believe life is where the spiritual and material realms intersect, and the soul is the spiritual aspect of us. I believe that spirit and matter interconnect most profoundly in our conscience, our super ego. That a sociopath appears to have no conscience, ie super ego, is highly suggestive to me of a disconnect between soul and body. Somehow the soul is missing. A sociopath might be quite literally soulless. But of course when we come to such matters we are discussing matters of faith which cannot perhaps yet be proven one way or the other. Why a living biological entity should be soulless is something of an enigma. I am still grasping at inner truths without knowing all the answers. All humans start with a blank page, although some might have a predisposition for a DNA fault like schizophrenia. The only normal disposition that is there, from some months before birth, is that humans are hard wired to be wary. The sensory system is learning and remembering actual threats and what feels like threats, even before the thinking brain starts to function which I believe is around two years of age. (I suspect schizophrenia is caused by a failure of the brain to adjusts from having speech in both hemispheres of the brain with the ability to learn to talk adjusted to having speech from one hemisphere only. Which I believe is normally the Left Hemisphere of the brain. In the sensory system, which is dominant in the early years (up to around the age of 12) the tone of voice is more important than the words spoken, that is sensory learning. Sensory learning is what creates individual personalities.
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