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Post by sandypine on Jan 28, 2024 21:34:12 GMT
Semantics is what is used to hate and blame the English for the ills of the world. We each supply sources which again are opinions and they were not my words they were Irish words. English are the Anglo-Saxons, why would you believe they are anything else, the state and crown may have been England but at the time the English were vassals to a colonial state and were clearly colonised by said state yet here we are over 800 years later placing it all on 'the English'. No one said the Irish were inferior but they were beaten and did make peace which is what history is about. ah sandy is back playing last wordism. I claimed Ireland was an English colony , and after post after post of utter piffle , semantic arguments , and blaming everyone bar England for Englands first colony , you still can't prove me wrong. I am not 'proving' anything I am placing other opinions into the forum, some may say I am wrong, some may agree. I know not but whatever it is clear that history is much more complicated than England bad. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 29, 2024 7:48:26 GMT
rubbish. The vast majority of colonists who were massacred were English , not Scottish , and the deaths of Scots being sent to plant Ireland doesn't in any way detract from my earlier point that the Scottish and Irish got on so well together that the British had to stop them marrying and intermingling. That's why you had former IRA commanders with southern Scottish surnames like ivor Bell , Of planter descent , and of course former Sinn Fein leader gerry Adams , again of Scots descent. Do keep up sandy. Do you have a link to the numbers. Ulster Scots history places the numbers as 60% scots and some say it was about 75%, whatever is true the Scots settlers were the majority. All through this thread , you have attempted to futilely pass the buck , muck rake , and cherry pick to try and forward your puerile points. All because I simply said ireland was an English colony. do you? Its you that brining this up , so back it up? See this an an example of your sheer dishonesty. I said ireland , the whole island , was an English colony. You then cherry pick one province, out of five ,post 1603 ,to try and throw blame on scotland. The Scottish settlers were there on behalf of the British crown. The British crown took its claim to rule ireland from earlier English conquests and settlements. It is. Whats that got to do with ireland being an English colony? Explain? Bit of a daft throw away comment. The same can be said for most European if not world countries. If you are subtly referring to modern sectarianism , this has its roots in the mid nineteenth century , so not that deeply rooted. Whats your point apart from yet more desperate muck raking? Northumbrian English fought for scotland against Edwards English at Bannockburn. Britons from scotland fought against britons from Wales. Another sandy irrelevant comment no one is arguing with , and has absolutely no bearing on the statement at hand that was ireland was an English colony. no im not. Im not oversimplifying anything , I simply said ireland was an English colony , and refer yourself to the treat of Windsor ,which makes that clear , and is the very treaty all subsequent Englishmen and English/british monarchs to this day lay claim to ireland, or part of ireland from. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 29, 2024 7:52:15 GMT
ah sandy is back playing last wordism. I claimed Ireland was an English colony , and after post after post of utter piffle , semantic arguments , and blaming everyone bar England for Englands first colony , you still can't prove me wrong. I am not 'proving' anything I am placing other opinions into the forum, some may say I am wrong, some may agree. I know not but whatever it is clear that history is much more complicated than England bad. You are an extremely dishonest poster , who cannot accept simple points , and litters every thread you are involved in with bullshit innuendo and cherry picked points that have largely nothing to do with the point in question. Ireland was a colony of England. Fact. This stems from the treaty of Windsor , where the Irish high king and his archbishop of tuam swore fealty to Henry the second as king of England. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 29, 2024 9:30:35 GMT
rubbish. The vast majority of colonists who were massacred were English , not Scottish , and the deaths of Scots being sent to plant Ireland doesn't in any way detract from my earlier point that the Scottish and Irish got on so well together that the British had to stop them marrying and intermingling. That's why you had former IRA commanders with southern Scottish surnames like ivor Bell , Of planter descent , and of course former Sinn Fein leader gerry Adams , again of Scots descent. Do keep up sandy. whatever is true the Scots settlers were the majority. presumably using your logic here, British colonisation of east Africa was all the fault off the Indians because the British crown placed Indians there as a buffer.? Did you get my point though , regarding native Irish people having Scottish surnames ? I see yet again you sidestepped it. ...and you feebly claim I have oversimplified Irish history......... |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 29, 2024 11:54:20 GMT
Do you have a link to the numbers. Ulster Scots history places the numbers as 60% scots and some say it was about 75%, whatever is true the Scots settlers were the majority. All through this thread , you have attempted to futilely pass the buck , muck rake , and cherry pick to try and forward your puerile points. All because I simply said ireland was an English colony. do you? Its you that brining this up , so back it up? See this an an example of your sheer dishonesty. I said ireland , the whole island , was an English colony. You then cherry pick one province, out of five ,post 1603 ,to try and throw blame on scotland. The Scottish settlers were there on behalf of the British crown. The British crown took its claim to rule ireland from earlier English conquests and settlements. It is. Whats that got to do with ireland being an English colony? Explain? Bit of a daft throw away comment. The same can be said for most European if not world countries. If you are subtly referring to modern sectarianism , this has its roots in the mid nineteenth century , so not that deeply rooted. Whats your point apart from yet more desperate muck raking? Northumbrian English fought for scotland against Edwards English at Bannockburn. Britons from scotland fought against britons from Wales. Another sandy irrelevant comment no one is arguing with , and has absolutely no bearing on the statement at hand that was ireland was an English colony. no im not. Im not oversimplifying anything , I simply said ireland was an English colony , and refer yourself to the treat of Windsor ,which makes that clear , and is the very treaty all subsequent Englishmen and English/british monarchs to this day lay claim to ireland, or part of ireland from. I see puerile has now appeared as a new derogatory word in this discussion. However to progress. Numbers. "The ratio of Scottish to English settlers in Ulster during the 17th century has often been put at five or six to one, with one rough estimate reckoning there were 100,000 Scots and 20,000 English at the time of the rebellion of 1641. The proportion would have been much higher in Antrim and north Down and more evenly balanced in the six west Ulster counties involved in the official Plantation scheme. The Gaelic-speaking Irish still formed a significant majority in most parishes in those counties by mid-century." www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/plantation/ulsterscots/index.shtmlYou did indeed say Ireland was an English colony for over 700 years. I pointed out that in terms of that being accurate it is a very complicated interaction of historical events that does not quite meet the simple premise England invaded Ireland and made her a colony. Religion has played a major part in the events in Ireland from the outset and was a factor in shifting support and bitter dissent from the word go. To believe it is limited to modern sectarianism is a bit simplistic. The example of the Wexford Bridge was to show that religion and not nationality was one of the deep rooted hatreds at work. There are many other examples going back to before plantation and the support of the Papacy in the initial Norman invasion. Queen Mary was initially accepted by many in Ireland as she was a Catholic and her co religionists expected support. It is never cut and dried. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2024 14:17:59 GMT
ah sandy is back playing last wordism. I claimed Ireland was an English colony , and after post after post of utter piffle , semantic arguments , and blaming everyone bar England for Englands first colony , you still can't prove me wrong. I am not 'proving' anything I am placing other opinions into the forum, some may say I am wrong, some may agree. I know not but whatever it is clear that history is much more complicated than England bad. Hating the English is a major part of snat culture so anything that challenges their oddball take on history will be met with fascism, abuse and extreme intolerance. It's why even a calm, respectful and thoroughly decent person such as yourself, a Scotsman who doesn't hate the English, is treated as an outcast by the snats. Thankfully, the vast majority of people on this island would consider you a real Scotsman. Perhaps the snats on here aren't really scots?
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Post by sandypine on Jan 29, 2024 14:32:43 GMT
whatever is true the Scots settlers were the majority. presumably using your logic here, British colonisation of east Africa was all the fault off the Indians because the British crown placed Indians there as a buffer.? Did you get my point though , regarding native Irish people having Scottish surnames ? I see yet again you sidestepped it. ...and you feebly claim I have oversimplified Irish history......... Well in your logic a better comparison would be that the invasion of Afghanistan by the legal government of India in 1878 means that India invaded Afghanistan to try and make it a colony. I got your point as regards names but largely the plantation was drawn from the Border Scots and Ayrshire area where the Church of Scotland held sway and the Covenant was much supported. |
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Post by morayloon on Jan 29, 2024 15:44:52 GMT
I am not 'proving' anything I am placing other opinions into the forum, some may say I am wrong, some may agree. I know not but whatever it is clear that history is much more complicated than England bad. Hating the English is a major part of snat culture so anything that challenges their oddball take on history will be met with fascism, abuse and extreme intolerance. It's why even a calm, respectful and thoroughly decent person such as yourself, a Scotsman who doesn't hate the English, is treated as an outcast by the snats. Thankfully, the vast majority of people on this island would consider you a real Scotsman. Perhaps the snats on here aren't really scots?
You keep repeating statements. But, you have no answer when asked for supporting evidence to back up your accusations: nothing has been forthcoming. So I will give you another try: 1. Where do you get the idea the SNP is anti-English, that it views English people with hatred? As far as I am aware, not one anti English statement has been made by Nationalist politicians, 2. What, exactly, is this "oddball take on history"? Provide examples. 3. You make use of derogatory words like "fascism", "abuse" and "extreme intolerance" in relation to the SNP. Again, give examples. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 29, 2024 16:17:06 GMT
All through this thread , you have attempted to futilely pass the buck , muck rake , and cherry pick to try and forward your puerile points. All because I simply said ireland was an English colony. . I see puerile has now appeared as a new derogatory word in this discussion. However to progress. Numbers. "The ratio of Scottish to English settlers in Ulster during the 17th century has often been put at five or six to one, with one rough estimate reckoning there were 100,000 Scots and 20,000 English at the time of the rebellion of 1641. The proportion would have been much higher in Antrim and north Down and more evenly balanced in the six west Ulster counties involved in the official Plantation scheme. The Gaelic-speaking Irish still formed a significant majority in most parishes in those counties by mid-century." www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/plantation/ulsterscots/index.shtmlYou did indeed say Ireland was an English colony for over 700 years. I pointed out that in terms of that being accurate it is a very complicated interaction of historical events that does not quite meet the simple premise England invaded Ireland and made her a colony. Religion has played a major part in the events in Ireland from the outset and was a factor in shifting support and bitter dissent from the word go. To believe it is limited to modern sectarianism is a bit simplistic. The example of the Wexford Bridge was to show that religion and not nationality was one of the deep rooted hatreds at work. There are many other examples going back to before plantation and the support of the Papacy in the initial Norman invasion. Queen Mary was initially accepted by many in Ireland as she was a Catholic and her co religionists expected support. It is never cut and dried. My contention to you was that ireland was an English colony. How does this refute that claim ? No one but you is arguing that there were not Scottish colonists in ulster. There were colonists from many countries in ireland. The vast majority over the longest time English. However , if not one English colonist had colonised ireland , it still wouldn't refute my point . To renew my point. 1.Ireland was a colony. Aye , ireland was conquered and settled , and fits the definition of colony. 2. Ireland was an English colony. Aye , it was conquered and settled on behalf of the English crown. Back to you. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 29, 2024 16:17:51 GMT
I am not 'proving' anything I am placing other opinions into the forum, some may say I am wrong, some may agree. I know not but whatever it is clear that history is much more complicated than England bad. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 29, 2024 16:18:46 GMT
presumably using your logic here, British colonisation of east Africa was all the fault off the Indians because the British crown placed Indians there as a buffer.? Did you get my point though , regarding native Irish people having Scottish surnames ? I see yet again you sidestepped it. ...and you feebly claim I have oversimplified Irish history......... Well in your logic a better comparison would be that the invasion of Afghanistan by the legal government of India in 1878 means that India invaded Afghanistan to try and make it a colony. I got your point as regards names but largely the plantation was drawn from the Border Scots and Ayrshire area where the Church of Scotland held sway and the Covenant was much supported. How does this refute my contention that ireland was an English colony? Back to you? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2024 16:18:58 GMT
presumably using your logic here, British colonisation of east Africa was all the fault off the Indians because the British crown placed Indians there as a buffer.? Did you get my point though , regarding native Irish people having Scottish surnames ? I see yet again you sidestepped it. ...and you feebly claim I have oversimplified Irish history......... Well in your logic a better comparison would be that the invasion of Afghanistan by the legal government of India in 1878 means that India invaded Afghanistan to try and make it a colony. I got your point as regards names but largely the plantation was drawn from the Border Scots and Ayrshire area where the Church of Scotland held sway and the Covenant was much supported. The question is why does the snat keep relying on Ireland whilst trying to make out that he's a victim of the English? He's been spreading the same nonsense to try and get the Welsh onboard, too. As for Scottish surnames then it was all the rage amongst the Scottish slavers back in the day. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 29, 2024 16:19:25 GMT
Hating the English is a major part of snat culture so anything that challenges their oddball take on history will be met with fascism, abuse and extreme intolerance. It's why even a calm, respectful and thoroughly decent person such as yourself, a Scotsman who doesn't hate the English, is treated as an outcast by the snats. Thankfully, the vast majority of people on this island would consider you a real Scotsman. Perhaps the snats on here aren't really scots?
You keep saying things that you are asked to back, but nothing has been forthcoming. So I will give you another try: 1. Where do you get the idea the SNP is anti-English, that it views English people with hatred? As far as I am aware, not one anti English statement has been made by Nationalist politicians, 2. What, exactly, is this "oddball take on history"? Provide examples. 3. You make use of derogatory words like "fascism", "abuse" and "extreme intolerance" in relation to the SNP. Again, give examples. moray dont waste your breath on afterbirth. The big words might hurt his head. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2024 16:19:36 GMT
See what I mean, Tinculin? |
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Post by thomas on Jan 29, 2024 16:20:08 GMT
Well in your logic a better comparison would be that the invasion of Afghanistan by the legal government of India in 1878 means that India invaded Afghanistan to try and make it a colony. I got your point as regards names but largely the plantation was drawn from the Border Scots and Ayrshire area where the Church of Scotland held sway and the Covenant was much supported.  |
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