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Post by jonksy on Jan 21, 2024 12:25:43 GMT
my Scottish nationalism with Europe? You do realise Scotland has a long history as friends with European nations , and for example had joint French citizenship for seven centuries before any English man had ever heard of eu citizenship? 62 % of Scots voted for the EU , and polls are around 70 % in support of the eu . you are a tiny minority mate , who lost an eu referendum in Scotland . identity and European citizenship is no more false than your small British identity and uk citizenship. Both are entities made up of varying nations, but only one allows countries to democratically leave. Huh there was a democratic vote and Scotland decided not to leave, I remember it well as I voted to stay, my wife is English and at the time voted for independence, she has since changed her mind after watching SNP government in action. I know very well that British identity was a creation but since my identity lies in both Scotland and England with some touches of Welsh I feel very much a part of that creation. Blackford: SNP can turn fortunes around but drop Labour comparison to Tories.....
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Post by thomas on Jan 21, 2024 15:21:22 GMT
you think being British is better than other nationalities? why? you have no country , Britain is a multi national state , barely three hundred years old , and the current incarnation a century old. you have no native British language . you don't have British birth certificates , or a British legal system the very basics most nations take for granted. you don't even have a basic thing like a football team , the worlds most popular sport and Britain the multi national state isn't even represented. Basically you appear to be proud Britain once had an empire , it's now mostly all gone , and the uk is declining economically military and in many other areas , but you are `proud`? im proud to be Scottish because in my view while not better or worse than anyone else, I too think it something worth having. we have a nation that stretches back to the ninth century , our own native language culture and customs , and unrivalled history going back over a millennia , something Britain aka the uk hast got. being Scottish isn't something I need to shout about to other Scots , merely whisper in pride. You are prevaricating a bit. Pride is defined as " a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired:" If something is widely admired then that suggests that that something is what others do not have. You may have pride in your physique but only because it is in your eyes admired by others as they do not have it, you may have pride in what you have achieved but largely because it is something that others have not achieved. You cannot be proud of what you are, and have, and in the same breath be equal in all ways to all others. You must have pride in being Scottish and from Scotland because you believe that it is something that either others admire or you know they do not have. I have pride in Britain because i believe in the lottery of life I was dealt a fine hand both culturally and socially and know that others wish that they also had a part of it and move heaven and earth to get it and of course in so doing are eroding the very things that make that so. Sandy you are gibbering .You asked me to put the meat on the bones of what it means to be Scottish , and ive tried. It's a mindset , same as British , or any other persons national identity. You argument is now boiling down to my pride in my nat id is better than your pride in your nat id. you need to listen to yourself. I couldn't care less whether you are proud to be British or not. I dont vote based on how you feel. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 21, 2024 15:28:45 GMT
my Scottish nationalism with Europe? You do realise Scotland has a long history as friends with European nations , and for example had joint French citizenship for seven centuries before any English man had ever heard of eu citizenship? 62 % of Scots voted for the EU , and polls are around 70 % in support of the eu . you are a tiny minority mate , who lost an eu referendum in Scotland . identity and European citizenship is no more false than your small British identity and uk citizenship. Both are entities made up of varying nations, but only one allows countries to democratically leave. Huh there was a democratic vote and Scotland decided not to leave, I remember it well as I voted to stay, my wife is English and at the time voted for independence, she has since changed her mind after watching SNP government in action. I know very well that British identity was a creation but since my identity lies in both Scotland and England with some touches of Welsh I feel very much a part of that creation. whats that got to do with what ive written.? You said earlier , that you couldn't understand why someone could support Scottish indy and also support Scotland in the EU. Ive explained the long history before Scotland has with our European friends , and that two thirds of Scottish people voted to remain in the EU so your view is in a minority in Scotland. so what are you talking about Scotland decided not to leave? The uks place within the EU was key plank of why Scotland decided not to leave in 2014. sorry sandy , but who cares? People dont vote on issues of national importance based on how their neighbour feels , or who is descended from who. Im Scottish , and im European , and proud of both identities , and my identity is linked with Europe . I can't wait to get my European citizenship back. |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 21, 2024 16:41:04 GMT
You are prevaricating a bit. Pride is defined as " a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired:" If something is widely admired then that suggests that that something is what others do not have. You may have pride in your physique but only because it is in your eyes admired by others as they do not have it, you may have pride in what you have achieved but largely because it is something that others have not achieved. You cannot be proud of what you are, and have, and in the same breath be equal in all ways to all others. You must have pride in being Scottish and from Scotland because you believe that it is something that either others admire or you know they do not have. I have pride in Britain because i believe in the lottery of life I was dealt a fine hand both culturally and socially and know that others wish that they also had a part of it and move heaven and earth to get it and of course in so doing are eroding the very things that make that so. Sandy you are gibbering .You asked me to put the meat on the bones of what it means to be Scottish , and ive tried. It's a mindset , same as British , or any other persons national identity. You argument is now boiling down to my pride in my nat id is better than your pride in your nat id. you need to listen to yourself. I couldn't care less whether you are proud to be British or not. I dont vote based on how you feel. All I asked is why you are proud to be Scottish and from Scotland. I must admit I did not expect to go all round the houses and end up not getting an answer. Why are you proud to be Scottish? |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 21, 2024 16:47:20 GMT
Huh there was a democratic vote and Scotland decided not to leave, I remember it well as I voted to stay, my wife is English and at the time voted for independence, she has since changed her mind after watching SNP government in action. I know very well that British identity was a creation but since my identity lies in both Scotland and England with some touches of Welsh I feel very much a part of that creation. whats that got to do with what ive written.? You said earlier , that you couldn't understand why someone could support Scottish indy and also support Scotland in the EU. Ive explained the long history before Scotland has with our European friends , and that two thirds of Scottish people voted to remain in the EU so your view is in a minority in Scotland. so what are you talking about Scotland decided not to leave? The uks place within the EU was key plank of why Scotland decided not to leave in 2014. sorry sandy , but who cares? People dont vote on issues of national importance based on how their neighbour feels , or who is descended from who. Im Scottish , and im European , and proud of both identities , and my identity is linked with Europe . I can't wait to get my European citizenship back. Getting your EU citizenship back certainly holds back a sizeable rump of those who would prefer an independent Scotland. The key plank was not a devolved matter and by the time of the Scottish referendum Cameron had already declared an in out EU referendum. Scotland voted to remain in the Union and that also meant accepting union decisions, just as you would have to accept EU decisions after you 'rejoined', you could not flounce off and say it is not fair once bagpipes could only be made in Turkey through EU regs. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 21, 2024 17:45:23 GMT
Sandy you are gibbering .You asked me to put the meat on the bones of what it means to be Scottish , and ive tried. It's a mindset , same as British , or any other persons national identity. You argument is now boiling down to my pride in my nat id is better than your pride in your nat id. you need to listen to yourself. I couldn't care less whether you are proud to be British or not. I dont vote based on how you feel. All I asked is why you are proud to be Scottish and from Scotland. I must admit I did not expect to go all round the houses and end up not getting an answer. Why are you proud to be Scottish? ive in part explained it to you already? im proud of the beauty of my country , im proud of the achievements of my people , im proud that Scotland is known and loved through much of the world , proud of our history language and culture and so on and so forth. The Scottish brand is known throughout the world . Not really sure what you are getting at sandy , and why you are hung up on the word `pride`? There are people who are proud to be Scottish , and vote for Scottish indy , there are others who are proud to be Scottish , and vote for the union. If I understood where you are going , then I might be able to help you further. you have no more explained to me , why you are proud to be British than I have to you why im proud to be Scottish. What is your point sandy? |
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Post by thomas on Jan 21, 2024 17:51:18 GMT
whats that got to do with what ive written.? You said earlier , that you couldn't understand why someone could support Scottish indy and also support Scotland in the EU. Ive explained the long history before Scotland has with our European friends , and that two thirds of Scottish people voted to remain in the EU so your view is in a minority in Scotland. so what are you talking about Scotland decided not to leave? The uks place within the EU was key plank of why Scotland decided not to leave in 2014. sorry sandy , but who cares? People dont vote on issues of national importance based on how their neighbour feels , or who is descended from who. Im Scottish , and im European , and proud of both identities , and my identity is linked with Europe . I can't wait to get my European citizenship back. Getting your EU citizenship back certainly holds back a sizeable rump of those who would prefer an independent Scotland. The key plank was not a devolved matter and by the time of the Scottish referendum Cameron had already declared an in out EU referendum. Scotland voted to remain in the Union and that also meant accepting union decisions, just as you would have to accept EU decisions after you 'rejoined', you could not flounce off and say it is not fair once bagpipes could only be made in Turkey through EU regs. How does getting my EU citizenship back hold back a sizeable rump of those who want scot indy? rubbish. Staying in the uk to stay in the eu was a key argument the remain side made , because Cameron knew Scotland was extremely pro European. That is a fact. devolution didnt come into it. Cameron had to win the 2015 general election to implement his Brexit referendum so what are you talking about? Labour were absolutely against a referendum , so at the time of the scot indy ref in 2014 , the Brexit ref was nothing more than mutterings from the tory party hq . how many times do we need to go over this , as you try and fail to re write history to suit your latest narrative? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2024 19:56:33 GMT
Sandy you are gibbering .You asked me to put the meat on the bones of what it means to be Scottish , and ive tried. It's a mindset , same as British , or any other persons national identity. You argument is now boiling down to my pride in my nat id is better than your pride in your nat id. you need to listen to yourself. I couldn't care less whether you are proud to be British or not. I dont vote based on how you feel. All I asked is why you are proud to be Scottish and from Scotland. I must admit I did not expect to go all round the houses and end up not getting an answer. Why are you proud to be Scottish? He doesn't know and appears to be programmed to scream support for the EU as a response. I wonder if Nazism was like this? Those lot almost completely destroyed Germany. |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 22, 2024 11:25:44 GMT
All I asked is why you are proud to be Scottish and from Scotland. I must admit I did not expect to go all round the houses and end up not getting an answer. Why are you proud to be Scottish? ive in part explained it to you already? im proud of the beauty of my country , im proud of the achievements of my people , im proud that Scotland is known and loved through much of the world , proud of our history language and culture and so on and so forth. The Scottish brand is known throughout the world . Not really sure what you are getting at sandy , and why you are hung up on the word `pride`? There are people who are proud to be Scottish , and vote for Scottish indy , there are others who are proud to be Scottish , and vote for the union. If I understood where you are going , then I might be able to help you further. you have no more explained to me , why you are proud to be British than I have to you why im proud to be Scottish. What is your point sandy? Actually I have explained it, although this is a better attempt to explain your pride. The point was the word pride, you used it, I was only seeking why pride. So you are saying that the beauty of Scotland is better than many others and that the achievements of Scotland's people is better than many others. The history language and culture are also source of pride so that indicates a preference. I am not saying that any of that is actually true I am just saying you have pride because that is your opinion. This is what I said as regards being British that in terms of the lottery of life I was born with a good hand as in my opinion Britain, as a whole is overall better than almost anywhere else which seems to be exactly what you are saying about Scotland. |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 22, 2024 11:41:03 GMT
Getting your EU citizenship back certainly holds back a sizeable rump of those who would prefer an independent Scotland. The key plank was not a devolved matter and by the time of the Scottish referendum Cameron had already declared an in out EU referendum. Scotland voted to remain in the Union and that also meant accepting union decisions, just as you would have to accept EU decisions after you 'rejoined', you could not flounce off and say it is not fair once bagpipes could only be made in Turkey through EU regs. How does getting my EU citizenship back hold back a sizeable rump of those who want scot indy? rubbish. Staying in the uk to stay in the eu was a key argument the remain side made , because Cameron knew Scotland was extremely pro European. That is a fact. devolution didnt come into it. Cameron had to win the 2015 general election to implement his Brexit referendum so what are you talking about? Labour were absolutely against a referendum , so at the time of the scot indy ref in 2014 , the Brexit ref was nothing more than mutterings from the tory party hq . how many times do we need to go over this , as you try and fail to re write history to suit your latest narrative? The key plank was not a devolved issue, that is palpably true. The referendum was on the cards before the Indy ref if the Tories won and they did as the government of the Union. It is hardly Leavers faults that those who thought Remain was a dead cert used it in the Indy ref. The same point still stands however that if one wishes to be part of a Union then one accepts decisions of that Union even if they work against the majority within any specific member. In 2015 both potential ruling parties stated quite clearly that the EU was not working to the benefit of Britain, both wanted to reform the EU from within but only one offered a referendum on the outcome of those negotiations. In 1964 England voted Tory but the votes in Scotland helped create a UK Labour government. This is what happens in a Union, I have no recollection of England moaning about the unfairness of it all. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 22, 2024 16:32:26 GMT
ive in part explained it to you already? im proud of the beauty of my country , im proud of the achievements of my people , im proud that Scotland is known and loved through much of the world , proud of our history language and culture and so on and so forth. The Scottish brand is known throughout the world . Not really sure what you are getting at sandy , and why you are hung up on the word `pride`? There are people who are proud to be Scottish , and vote for Scottish indy , there are others who are proud to be Scottish , and vote for the union. If I understood where you are going , then I might be able to help you further. you have no more explained to me , why you are proud to be British than I have to you why im proud to be Scottish. What is your point sandy? Actually I have explained it, although this is a better attempt to explain your pride. The point was the word pride, you used it, I was only seeking why pride. So you are saying that the beauty of Scotland is better than many others and that the achievements of Scotland's peopl e is better than many others. The history language and culture are also source of pride so that indicates a preference. I am not saying that any of that is actually true I am just saying you have pride because that is your opinion. This is what I said as regards being British that in terms of the lottery of life I was born with a good hand as in my opinion Britain, as a whole is overall better than almost anywhere else which seems to be exactly what you are saying about Scotland. let me help you out with the definition of the English language word pride sandy. you are inventing things once again sandy. You can have pride in something like your national identity or country. It doesn't automatically equate that pride means you are better than many others. sure , I get your opinion . Your pride makes you feel `britain` is better , my pride in Scotland makes me feel equal and as good as anywhere else. one doesn't preclude the other. Again , whats your point. ? do you have one? |
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Post by thomas on Jan 22, 2024 16:36:59 GMT
How does getting my EU citizenship back hold back a sizeable rump of those who want scot indy? rubbish. Staying in the uk to stay in the eu was a key argument the remain side made , because Cameron knew Scotland was extremely pro European. That is a fact. devolution didnt come into it. Cameron had to win the 2015 general election to implement his Brexit referendum so what are you talking about? Labour were absolutely against a referendum , so at the time of the scot indy ref in 2014 , the Brexit ref was nothing more than mutterings from the tory party hq . how many times do we need to go over this , as you try and fail to re write history to suit your latest narrative? The key plank was not a devolved issue, that is palpably true. devolution was nothing to do with the referendum. The key plank of the better together side was to portray the uk as a safe place inside the EU , and an independent Scotland as unsafe out of it. That's the whole point . If better together had stood on a Brexit ticket , and told Scots you are going to be voting to remain in a uk outside the EU , then its arguable the outcome in 2014 would have been much different. so what are you talking about? |
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Post by thomas on Jan 22, 2024 17:50:54 GMT
How does getting my EU citizenship back hold back a sizeable rump of those who want scot indy? rubbish. Staying in the uk to stay in the eu was a key argument the remain side made , because Cameron knew Scotland was extremely pro European. That is a fact. devolution didnt come into it. Cameron had to win the 2015 general election to implement his Brexit referendum so what are you talking about? Labour were absolutely against a referendum , so at the time of the scot indy ref in 2014 , the Brexit ref was nothing more than mutterings from the tory party hq . how many times do we need to go over this , as you try and fail to re write history to suit your latest narrative? The key plank was not a devolved issue, that is palpably true. The referendum was on the cards before the Indy ref if the Tories won and they did as the government of the Union. It is hardly Leavers faults that those who thought Remain was a dead cert used it in the Indy ref. The same point still stands however that if one wishes to be part of a Union then one accepts decisions of that Union even if they work against the majority within any specific member. In 2015 both potential ruling parties stated quite clearly that the EU was not working to the benefit of Britain, both wanted to reform the EU from within but only one offered a referendum on the outcome of those negotiations
"It's disingenuous to say that No means out and Yes means in, when actually the opposite is true. No means
we stay in, we are a member of the European Union." - Ruth Davidson MSP, 2nd September 2014, at the STV
debate in the Assembly Rooms in Edinburgh.
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Post by sandypine on Jan 22, 2024 19:44:45 GMT
Actually I have explained it, although this is a better attempt to explain your pride. The point was the word pride, you used it, I was only seeking why pride. So you are saying that the beauty of Scotland is better than many others and that the achievements of Scotland's peopl e is better than many others. The history language and culture are also source of pride so that indicates a preference. I am not saying that any of that is actually true I am just saying you have pride because that is your opinion. This is what I said as regards being British that in terms of the lottery of life I was born with a good hand as in my opinion Britain, as a whole is overall better than almost anywhere else which seems to be exactly what you are saying about Scotland. let me help you out with the definition of the English language word pride sandy. you are inventing things once again sandy. You can have pride in something like your national identity or country. It doesn't automatically equate that pride means you are better than many others. sure , I get your opinion . Your pride makes you feel `britain` is better , my pride in Scotland makes me feel equal and as good as anywhere else. one doesn't preclude the other. Again , whats your point. ? do you have one? Thanks for helping me out but you are still prevaricating. Two of the definitions above require some attribute of either excellence or special ability. The other one is a passive attribute that can be punctured and belongs to everyone in the first instance and cn nly be lost. You still have not said why you have pride in Scotland, you like what you are, where you come from and the culture and natural beauty of that place but in order to be proud of those things one must have seen other things that are in your opinion lesser. You cannot have pride in your physique if you live in a world of Schwarzeneggers so your pride must be based on a comparison to something else. I have no hesitation is saying I believe Britain and her people are the best. Why do you find that so difficult to say? Which of course is the point. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 22, 2024 19:50:49 GMT
let me help you out with the definition of the English language word pride sandy. you are inventing things once again sandy. You can have pride in something like your national identity or country. It doesn't automatically equate that pride means you are better than many others. sure , I get your opinion . Your pride makes you feel `britain` is better , my pride in Scotland makes me feel equal and as good as anywhere else. one doesn't preclude the other. Again , whats your point. ? do you have one? Thanks for helping me out but you are still prevaricating. Two of the definitions above require some attribute of either excellence or special ability. The other one is a passive attribute that can be punctured and belongs to everyone in the first instance and cn nly be lost. You still have not said why you have pride in Scotland, you like what you are, where you come from and the culture and natural beauty of that place but in order to be proud of those things one must have seen other things that are in your opinion lesser. You cannot have pride in your physique if you live in a world of Schwarzeneggers so your pride must be based on a comparison to something else. I have no hesitation is saying I believe Britain and her people are the best. Why do you find that so difficult to say? Which of course is the point. sandy , you are gibbering again. Im not going to degenerate down to an argument about whose pride is better or more worthy. |
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