Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2024 20:11:22 GMT
Scotland hasn't destroyed the old uk. Ireland left a century ago , nothing to do with us , the English government left Northern Ireland in the eu , nothing to do with us , and it was an English government in London that ended the old unitary state. The uk has been destroying itself , from its heady days in 1801 to its current situation. I disagree with the rest of your post , as does half the population according to polls , and clearly regarding Europe , you are in a tiny minority in Scotland. I am not saying Scotland did destroy the old UK but it is part of the process irrespective of the wishes of whatever majority you wish to consider. It is not an English government in London it is a UK government, I agree that leaving NI in the EU is foolish act, or a deliberate act, dependant on your viewpoint. I come back to the pride question why do you have pride in your country and Nationality if it is in all respects equal to all other countries and Nationalities? As I said I have pride in Britain but that is because I believe that Britain is, or was, the best in most respects. I would argue that you're a patriot as opposed to a negative nationalist which the IRA lot tapped into once upon a time.
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jan 20, 2024 20:18:42 GMT
of course it s part of the process. The fact though is many people outside Scotland in other parts of the uk past and present are vehemently against maintaining this union. Even English mps like Caroline Lucas are beginning to talk about it. what do you mean irrespective of the wishes of the majority? im not arguing semantics , it was predominantly an English government in London that negotiated the deal that left Northern Ireland in the EU. The Scottish government had no say. you talk as though its mutually exclusive to have pride in Scotland. , and being Scottish , but accepting we are no more or less than other nations. Why can't I hold those views? good for you. I don't have that view. If I thought the same I wouldn't obviously be a Scottish independence supporter. You have to ask why , after three centuries , so many Scots want out of this union if it's so good. why have so many countries 65 in total at least , been desperate to leave London rule if it was is fucking marvellous? Do you wish to try again, you said you are proud of your country and your Nationality I was only asking why you have that pride, what about Scotland and teh Scottish makes you proud? At least I can explain why I am proud of being British. Give it a go. why im proud to be Scottish and proud of my country? I was born and bred in Glasgow , and spent my formative years in govan , and latterly paisley. Scottishness is a mindset ,something you are born into , and experience everyday via family friends and others. you speak Scots , the language of our birth , taught to you by your mummy , you run around with mates who are Scottish , you grow up supporting Scottish teams ( Celtic ) and the Scottish international team , you learn about Scotlands language and history , our achievements as a small nation , and the people you live around and who you come from. I suspect the same thing that the members of every nation everywhere around the world feel about their own country.
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jan 20, 2024 20:22:37 GMT
I am not saying Scotland did destroy the old UK but it is part of the process irrespective of the wishes of whatever majority you wish to consider. It is not an English government in London it is a UK government, I agree that leaving NI in the EU is foolish act, or a deliberate act, dependant on your viewpoint. I come back to the pride question why do you have pride in your country and Nationality if it is in all respects equal to all other countries and Nationalities? As I said I have pride in Britain but that is because I believe that Britain is, or was, the best in most respects. I would argue that you're a patriot as opposed to a negative nationalist which the IRA lot tapped into once upon a time. if you believe in the British nation , then by definition you are a British nationalist. you don't own nationalism or patriotism , and you don't get to tell others what their nationality is or how they should feel . after 65 nations leaving London rule , including the republic or ireland , part of the English kingdom and ruled from London far longer than Scotland , yet have you never wondered why if London rule was that great , they all wanted to leave? are you angry the yanks decided to leave London rule ? negative nationalists that just wouldn't let the London elite pick their pockets? im sure we are all crushed rebirth , you think so lowly of us all .
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Jan 20, 2024 20:26:39 GMT
I am not saying Scotland did destroy the old UK but it is part of the process irrespective of the wishes of whatever majority you wish to consider. It is not an English government in London it is a UK government, I agree that leaving NI in the EU is foolish act, or a deliberate act, dependant on your viewpoint. I come back to the pride question why do you have pride in your country and Nationality if it is in all respects equal to all other countries and Nationalities? As I said I have pride in Britain but that is because I believe that Britain is, or was, the best in most respects. I would argue that you're a patriot as opposed to a negative nationalist which the IRA lot tapped into once upon a time. Of course I am a patriot, if one is proud of something one is then one protects the existence of that thing whatever it may be. If one is proud of being part of a winning football team then one may wish to continue winning, if one is proud of being a member of a family whose siblings are successful in business one protects that success because these are the very bases of ones pride. Of course being a patriot is also a vulnerability for those that would misuse one's patriotism for their own ends. Fortunately one can recognise that vulnerability and deal with it and make special efforts not to be misled.
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Jan 20, 2024 20:36:56 GMT
Do you wish to try again, you said you are proud of your country and your Nationality I was only asking why you have that pride, what about Scotland and teh Scottish makes you proud? At least I can explain why I am proud of being British. Give it a go. why im proud to be Scottish and proud of my country? I was born and bred in Glasgow , and spent my formative years in govan , and latterly paisley. Scottishness is a mindset ,something you are born into , and experience everyday via family friends and others. you speak Scots , the language of our birth , taught to you by your mummy , you run around with mates who are Scottish , you grow up supporting Scottish teams ( Celtic ) and the Scottish international team , you learn about Scotlands language and history , our achievements as a small nation , and the people you live around and who you come from. I suspect the same thing that the members of every nation everywhere around the world feel about their own country. But why would that make you 'proud'? You are what you are but having pride indicates a sense of worth that others cannot have because they are not Scots I have stated clearly I have pride in being British because in my view that is worth something more than others have. I may be totally wrong but so is the nature of pride as it is a perception of being worth more. Is that why you have pride in being Scots?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2024 20:38:54 GMT
I would argue that you're a patriot as opposed to a negative nationalist which the IRA lot tapped into once upon a time. Of course I am a patriot, if one is proud of something one is then one protects the existence of that thing whatever it may be. If one is proud of being part of a winning football team then one may wish to continue winning, if one is proud of being a member of a family whose siblings are successful in business one protects that success because these are the very bases of ones pride. Of course being a patriot is also a vulnerability for those that would misuse one's patriotism for their own ends. Fortunately one can recognise that vulnerability and deal with it and make special efforts not to be misled. This could be why the majority of voters in Scotland rejected Thomas and the Orcs. Perhaps more are like you. It's just a guess, since I obviously don't know what everyone is thinking, but it would be somewhat moronic to throw something away out of hatred brought on by moronic negative nationalist propaganda and fantasy where the grass is always greener.
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Jan 20, 2024 20:42:13 GMT
I would argue that you're a patriot as opposed to a negative nationalist which the IRA lot tapped into once upon a time. if you believe in the British nation , then by definition you are a British nationalist. you don't own nationalism or patriotism , and you don't get to tell others what their nationality is or how they should feel . after 65 nations leaving London rule , including the republic or ireland , part of the English kingdom and ruled from London far longer than Scotland , yet have you never wondered why if London rule was that great , they all wanted to leave? are you angry the yanks decided to leave London rule ? negative nationalists that just wouldn't let the London elite pick their pockets? im sure we are all crushed rebirth , you think so lowly of us all . Of course I do not own patriotism, Empires rise and fall some better than others, I would argue as Empires go Britain was better than most which recognises its faults and approves of its beneficial effects. Leaving London rule, or foreign rule more accurately, is the aspiration of almost every group of people everywhere who have pride in their country. So far Scotland has not wanted to leave.
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Jan 20, 2024 20:47:51 GMT
Of course I am a patriot, if one is proud of something one is then one protects the existence of that thing whatever it may be. If one is proud of being part of a winning football team then one may wish to continue winning, if one is proud of being a member of a family whose siblings are successful in business one protects that success because these are the very bases of ones pride. Of course being a patriot is also a vulnerability for those that would misuse one's patriotism for their own ends. Fortunately one can recognise that vulnerability and deal with it and make special efforts not to be misled. This could be why the majority of voters in Scotland rejected Thomas and the Orcs. Perhaps more are like you. It's just a guess, since I obviously don't know what everyone is thinking, but it would be somewhat moronic to throw something away out of hatred brought on by moronic negative nationalist propaganda and fantasy where the grass is always greener. I find it hard to reconcile his Scottish Nationalism with the desire to be part of the EU and subordinate that very Nationalism to a different foreign body. I see no sense in it, we know the EU subordinate Nationalities to the EU and try and create an EU identity and capture for the EU the very Nationalistic feelings to their own ends. It is a false identity as it changes with new memberships and no doubt with its proposed expansion into North Africa and possibly Turkey then they will also become just other EU Nationals.
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jan 20, 2024 20:55:57 GMT
why im proud to be Scottish and proud of my country? I was born and bred in Glasgow , and spent my formative years in govan , and latterly paisley. Scottishness is a mindset ,something you are born into , and experience everyday via family friends and others. you speak Scots , the language of our birth , taught to you by your mummy , you run around with mates who are Scottish , you grow up supporting Scottish teams ( Celtic ) and the Scottish international team , you learn about Scotlands language and history , our achievements as a small nation , and the people you live around and who you come from. I suspect the same thing that the members of every nation everywhere around the world feel about their own country. But why would that make you 'proud'? You are what you are but having pride indicates a sense of worth that others cannot have because they are not Scots I have stated clearly I have pride in being British because in my view that is worth something more than others have. I may be totally wrong but so is the nature of pride as it is a perception of being worth more. Is that why you have pride in being Scots? you think being British is better than other nationalities? why? you have no country , Britain is a multi national state , barely three hundred years old , and the current incarnation a century old. you have no native British language . you don't have British birth certificates , or a British legal system the very basics most nations take for granted. you don't even have a basic thing like a football team , the worlds most popular sport and Britain the multi national state isn't even represented. Basically you appear to be proud Britain once had an empire , it's now mostly all gone , and the uk is declining economically military and in many other areas , but you are `proud`? im proud to be Scottish because in my view while not better or worse than anyone else, I too think it something worth having. we have a nation that stretches back to the ninth century , our own native language culture and customs , and unrivalled history going back over a millennia , something Britain aka the uk hast got. being Scottish isn't something I need to shout about to other Scots , merely whisper in pride.
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jan 20, 2024 20:58:15 GMT
if you believe in the British nation , then by definition you are a British nationalist. you don't own nationalism or patriotism , and you don't get to tell others what their nationality is or how they should feel . after 65 nations leaving London rule , including the republic or ireland , part of the English kingdom and ruled from London far longer than Scotland , yet have you never wondered why if London rule was that great , they all wanted to leave? are you angry the yanks decided to leave London rule ? negative nationalists that just wouldn't let the London elite pick their pockets? im sure we are all crushed rebirth , you think so lowly of us all . Of course I do not own patriotism, Empires rise and fall some better than others, I would argue as Empires go Britain was better than most which recognises its faults and approves of its beneficial effects. Leaving London rule, or foreign rule more accurately, is the aspiration of almost every group of people everywhere who have pride in their country. So far Scotland has not wanted to leave. we have only had one go in modern history , and for the first 120 years of union , there was non stop armed uprisings trying to leave but unable to. With the unionist population receding , and a growing nationalist , I hope it won't be long now.
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jan 20, 2024 21:01:00 GMT
This could be why the majority of voters in Scotland rejected Thomas and the Orcs. Perhaps more are like you. It's just a guess, since I obviously don't know what everyone is thinking, but it would be somewhat moronic to throw something away out of hatred brought on by moronic negative nationalist propaganda and fantasy where the grass is always greener. I find it hard to reconcile his Scottish Nationalism with the desire to be part of the EU and subordinate that very Nationalism to a different foreign body. I see no sense in it, we know the EU subordinate Nationalities to the EU and try and create an EU identity and capture for the EU the very Nationalistic feelings to their own ends. It is a false identity as it changes with new memberships and no doubt with its proposed expansion into North Africa and possibly Turkey then they will also become just other EU Nationals. my Scottish nationalism with Europe? You do realise Scotland has a long history as friends with European nations , and for example had joint French citizenship for seven centuries before any English man had ever heard of eu citizenship? 62 % of Scots voted for the EU , and polls are around 70 % in support of the eu . you are a tiny minority mate , who lost an eu referendum in Scotland . identity and European citizenship is no more false than your small British identity and uk citizenship. Both are entities made up of varying nations, but only one allows countries to democratically leave.
|
|
|
Post by morayloon on Jan 21, 2024 4:41:56 GMT
Of course I do not own patriotism, Empires rise and fall some better than others, I would argue as Empires go Britain was better than most which recognises its faults and approves of its beneficial effects. Leaving London rule, or foreign rule more accurately, is the aspiration of almost every group of people everywhere who have pride in their country. So far Scotland has not wanted to leave. With the unionist population receding , and a growing nationalist , I hope it won't be long now. Two problems I can see, T: the level of immigration from the south, and the ageing population. 1. About 10% of our population were from rUK in 2011. It will be interesting to see by how much that has increased once the 2022 census info is released. Ailsa Henderson's study suggested that 72% of rUK people voted NO. blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/scottishreferendumstudy/files/2015/03/Scottish-Referendum-Study-27-March-2015.pdf So, a population increase stemming from rUK could well scupper a future referendum. Figures already released show Scotland's population has increased. However, that increase is not down to births against deaths in Scotland: the population would have decreased if that were the case. No, it was down to inward migration. A worrying situation! 2. An ageing population. The 9years 4 months since the referendum has seen many deaths in the +65s age group, but the question is, will those now in the retirement category be swayed by the lies e.g. on pensions, and the ridiculous suggestion that Scots would be cut off from relatives and friends out with Scotland, etc? The people moving into retirement have lived their adult lives with a strong SNP, and have lived through the poisonous Brit Nat campaign of 2013-14. The idea of Independence has become entrenched in the minds of Scots, and the feeling Scots have of being Scottish is present in abundance (62% at the 2011 referendum stated they were Scottish only: it will be interesting to see if that has dropped when the 2022 figures are published). Maybe my negative thoughts are misplaced. We don't want a plethora of treacherous Unionists 'representing' Scotland, but that could happen. Many Nationalists are openly saying they won't vote SNP because the party has shown no urgency in promoting the case for Independence. I was thinking such thoughts, but now my belief is that we must hold our nose and put the X against the candidate who fights for Scotland and, like it or not, he/she will represent the SNP. Polling evidence suggests Alba is going nowhere, but AS has said the party will contest 12 seats this year. I think that would be a mistake, and agree with James Kelly's view that Alba should only contest the list. We have to wait two years for that to come round, though. The Greens could be a problem but with Lorna Slater saying that Independence is not a 'red line' for any negotiations with Labour, Independistas, I reckon, will be wary of backing them. I was a member of the SNP for almost 50 years, and always voted for the party, with 2 exceptions (once for Tommy Sheridan and once for Alba). This year I will be voting SNP, even if Alba put up a candidate in Moray -extremely unlikely. After the election, we can get stuck into Yousaf & co, and pressurise them into actually fighting for what the party is in existence for.
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jan 21, 2024 7:54:32 GMT
With the unionist population receding , and a growing nationalist , I hope it won't be long now. Two problems I can see, T: the level of immigration from the south, and the ageing population. 1. About 10% of our population were from rUK in 2011. It will be interesting to see by how much that has increased once the 2022 census info is released. Ailsa Henderson's study suggested that 72% of rUK people voted NO. blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/scottishreferendumstudy/files/2015/03/Scottish-Referendum-Study-27-March-2015.pdf So, a population increase stemming from rUK could well scupper a future referendum. Figures already released show Scotland's population has increased. However, that increase is not down to births against deaths in Scotland: the population would have decreased if that were the case. No, it was down to inward migration. A worrying situation! 2. An ageing population. The 9years 4 months since the referendum has seen many deaths in the +65s age group, but the question is, will those now in the retirement category be swayed by the lies e.g. on pensions, and the ridiculous suggestion that Scots would be cut off from relatives and friends out with Scotland, etc? The people moving into retirement have lived their adult lives with a strong SNP, and have lived through the poisonous Brit Nat campaign of 2013-14. The idea of Independence has become entrenched in the minds of Scots, and the feeling Scots have of being Scottish is present in abundance (62% at the 2011 referendum stated they were Scottish only: it will be interesting to see if that has dropped when the 2022 figures are published). Maybe my negative thoughts are misplaced. We don't want a plethora of treacherous Unionists 'representing' Scotland, but that could happen. Many Nationalists are openly saying they won't vote SNP because the party has shown no urgency in promoting the case for Independence. I was thinking such thoughts, but now my belief is that we must hold our nose and put the X against the candidate who fights for Scotland and, like it or not, he/she will represent the SNP. Polling evidence suggests Alba is going nowhere, but AS has said the party will contest 12 seats this year. I think that would be a mistake, and agree with James Kelly's view that Alba should only contest the list. We have to wait two years for that to come round, though. The Greens could be a problem but with Lorna Slater saying that Independence is not a 'red line' for any negotiations with Labour, Independistas, I reckon, will be wary of backing them. I was a member of the SNP for almost 50 years, and always voted for the party, with 2 exceptions (once for Tommy Sheridan and once for Alba). This year I will be voting SNP, even if Alba put up a candidate in Moray -extremely unlikely. After the election, we can get stuck into Yousaf & co, and pressurise them into actually fighting for what the party is in existence for. agree with pretty much everything you say moray. The British are doomed. If the uk doesn't break up , and I dont believe the current incarnation will exist within the next few years , it's going to be swallowed up by the European Union. The greens are a major problem. They have clearly jumped on the indy bandwagon to push their own divisive and zany green policies and agenda. All the major indy politicians within and without the snp have commented on the disaster that is the working relationship between the snp and greens. Patrick harvie epitomises the snobbish liberal middle class tree huggers , with his zany punitive green policies which are directly attacking the ordinary working class man and woman. The guy lives in planet zog. Slater is a clown of the highest order. Ive voted green in the past. I used to think they were harmless well meaning idiots , but now I see they are extremely dangerous zealots , who cannot be trusted with an inch of power at any level. Give voting rights to Scottish birth certificate holders only. The English banned European citizens living in the uk from voting in 2016 , so the benchmark is there.
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Jan 21, 2024 11:27:42 GMT
But why would that make you 'proud'? You are what you are but having pride indicates a sense of worth that others cannot have because they are not Scots I have stated clearly I have pride in being British because in my view that is worth something more than others have. I may be totally wrong but so is the nature of pride as it is a perception of being worth more. Is that why you have pride in being Scots? you think being British is better than other nationalities? why? you have no country , Britain is a multi national state , barely three hundred years old , and the current incarnation a century old. you have no native British language . you don't have British birth certificates , or a British legal system the very basics most nations take for granted. you don't even have a basic thing like a football team , the worlds most popular sport and Britain the multi national state isn't even represented. Basically you appear to be proud Britain once had an empire , it's now mostly all gone , and the uk is declining economically military and in many other areas , but you are `proud`? im proud to be Scottish because in my view while not better or worse than anyone else, I too think it something worth having. we have a nation that stretches back to the ninth century , our own native language culture and customs , and unrivalled history going back over a millennia , something Britain aka the uk hast got. being Scottish isn't something I need to shout about to other Scots , merely whisper in pride. You are prevaricating a bit. Pride is defined as " a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired:" If something is widely admired then that suggests that that something is what others do not have. You may have pride in your physique but only because it is in your eyes admired by others as they do not have it, you may have pride in what you have achieved but largely because it is something that others have not achieved. You cannot be proud of what you are, and have, and in the same breath be equal in all ways to all others. You must have pride in being Scottish and from Scotland because you believe that it is something that either others admire or you know they do not have. I have pride in Britain because i believe in the lottery of life I was dealt a fine hand both culturally and socially and know that others wish that they also had a part of it and move heaven and earth to get it and of course in so doing are eroding the very things that make that so.
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Jan 21, 2024 11:35:43 GMT
I find it hard to reconcile his Scottish Nationalism with the desire to be part of the EU and subordinate that very Nationalism to a different foreign body. I see no sense in it, we know the EU subordinate Nationalities to the EU and try and create an EU identity and capture for the EU the very Nationalistic feelings to their own ends. It is a false identity as it changes with new memberships and no doubt with its proposed expansion into North Africa and possibly Turkey then they will also become just other EU Nationals. my Scottish nationalism with Europe? You do realise Scotland has a long history as friends with European nations , and for example had joint French citizenship for seven centuries before any English man had ever heard of eu citizenship? 62 % of Scots voted for the EU , and polls are around 70 % in support of the eu . you are a tiny minority mate , who lost an eu referendum in Scotland . identity and European citizenship is no more false than your small British identity and uk citizenship. Both are entities made up of varying nations, but only one allows countries to democratically leave. Huh there was a democratic vote and Scotland decided not to leave, I remember it well as I voted to stay, my wife is English and at the time voted for independence, she has since changed her mind after watching SNP government in action. I know very well that British identity was a creation but since my identity lies in both Scotland and England with some touches of Welsh I feel very much a part of that creation.
|
|