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Post by oracle75 on Jan 20, 2024 8:26:20 GMT
First, the EU is not failing, of only in your dreams. You dont describe in what way you assess this failure, but obviously look for and create bias confirmation. You may not appreciate the fact that an elected head of statz represents the country on the international stage. He/she might appoint a proxy but he/she is ultimately responsible for the voice of the country on the world stage. Just think of Netanyahu whose word still counts even if he no longer represents the majority of the people of Israel. Democracy means you have to wait for an election. Otherwise you have tyranny. I can assure you that the people of the EU are quite content with the existential presence and results of the EU. Objection secured by illegal means does not mean the majority of a country objects to it. Netanyahu is an example of why the HofS is a dangerous person to allow to make binding international decisions that parliament cannot reverse without negating the whole thing. If the EU was working to the content of the people then they would not have lost 70 million citizens and a net contributor to their budget in recent years and would not have alienated over 17 million of those very citizens. Dissatisfaction with the EU is increasing in most member states, not yet to the point of leaving in many countries but 'content' is not all encompassing and contrarians have loud voices. Your unsubstantoated numbers are puny compated to the 450 million population of the EU. ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/edn-20230711-1#:~:text=Over%20a%20longer%20period%2C%20the,increase%20of%2093.9%20million%20people. |
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Post by oracle75 on Jan 20, 2024 8:30:10 GMT
Outrage at EUSSR's silence as Donald Tusk 'deploys riot police to purge those who oppose him'.
That is a national issue, not in the EU's remit. Look. If you want to criticise the RU, it is fundamental that you know what it can and cannot do and how it does what it czn do. National security is a national SOVEREIGN issue. |
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Post by buccaneer on Jan 20, 2024 9:59:40 GMT
Well, the article quite rightly doesn't let the EU off the hook when it picks and chooses to use the 'rule of law' rhetoric.
I think suppressing journalists with riot police is against the rights of a 'free' society.
But this is typical of the EU. They've got their pet posted in Warsaw and only pro-EU propaganda will suffice for Mr. Tusk who claimed they'd be a "special place in hell for those who promoted Brexit.."
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Post by see2 on Jan 20, 2024 10:27:37 GMT
No one can agree with making it a better place??? It has been throughout history of the democratic world that your elected leader represents the nation on the international stage or appoints someone to do so. NATO The UN. The G7, 8 and 20. The World Bank International Court of Human Rights To name a few. It is a fundamental principle of international democratic cooperation. However the rules within all of those groups are a little more tenuous, item specific and less binding than being part of a giant bureaucracy that was allowed to make a multitude of regulations as regards ever increasing aspects of our lives over which our parliament had little control. I am not sure the ECHR is a good example as that is seen by many as interference within the confines of our own laws. Too often law and laws are used by the powerful to oppress the weak and removing democratic control of those laws or distancing the electorate from those laws aids that process. Representative Democracy (RD) is commonsense. In a representative democracy the individual uses democracy to elect their representatives. Their representatives are beholden to the electorate to be better informed than the average individual on matters arising. Which is a very good reason why both the EU and the UK use RD. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2024 10:31:59 GMT
Outrage at EUSSR's silence as Donald Tusk 'deploys riot police to purge those who oppose him'.
Apparently, it is what they voted for, Jonksy, a police state run from Brussels. |
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Post by see2 on Jan 20, 2024 10:42:39 GMT
Treaties bind parliaments. Treaties were changed without our democratic involvement. Sovereign powers moved from our elected MPs to the unelected Commission without our democratic consent. If those powers had gone to MEPs instead, the result of the 2016 referendum might have been different. But ultimately we voted to have our sovereignty back and if the Tories don't listen to us, they'll get the sack. It took decades of effort to give the EU the sack, but thank goodness we did it. True, Including in the EU parliament. The UK and those who think like the UK, were members of the EU parliament. All having their say in the acceptance or rejection of new laws submitted. The unelected Commission, consisting of politicians from every member country, did not impose any new laws on anyone. LIMITED shared democracy was beneficial for the over all progress of all member states. |
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Post by see2 on Jan 20, 2024 10:46:58 GMT
Outrage at EUSSR's silence as Donald Tusk 'deploys riot police to purge those who oppose him'.
Apparently, it is what they voted for, Jonksy, a police state run from Brussels. Extremist political actions from either the Left or the Right have no place in the EU. And thank goodness for that. |
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Post by jonksy on Jan 20, 2024 10:53:37 GMT
Apparently, it is what they voted for, Jonksy, a police state run from Brussels. Extremist political actions from either the Left or the Right have no place in the EU. And thank goodness for that. Thank goodness some are born with a brain. As those who were nod are really dangerous. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 20, 2024 11:06:31 GMT
I'm not a member of any party. And if Labour believed in paying down the national debt, cutting taxes and growing the private sector instead of building up the civil service, and actually knowing what a woman is instead of obsessively going after the Eddie Izzard vote, I'd have more sympathy for them. Labour hasn't learned anything from 25 years of mistakes. And you haven't learned anything from their successes. That's the trouble with labour though isn't it? the cons vastly outweigh the pros , hence why so many of the electorate won't vote them. |
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Post by see2 on Jan 20, 2024 11:55:57 GMT
And you haven't learned anything from their successes. That's the trouble with labour though isn't it? the cons vastly outweigh the pros , hence why so many of the electorate won't vote them. That is of course in your seriously biased opinion, which you are both entitled to and are seriously welcomed to. Nether of which would be the case if you had learnt anything from their success. |
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Post by see2 on Jan 20, 2024 11:57:21 GMT
Extremist political actions from either the Left or the Right have no place in the EU. And thank goodness for that. Thank goodness some are born with a brain. As those who were nod are really dangerous. I'm so pleased that you agree with me  |
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Post by thomas on Jan 20, 2024 12:05:32 GMT
That's the trouble with labour though isn't it? the cons vastly outweigh the pros , hence why so many of the electorate won't vote them. That is of course in your seriously biased opinion, which you are both entitled to and are seriously welcomed to. Nether of which would be the case if you had learnt anything from their success. we are all biased , so. pointing out my bias as though its unique just shows the stupidity of your arguments . It's a fact to point out four fifths of the uk electorate aren't going to vote for the Labour Party. Im sure you will tell me its because we are all stupid, and need to see the light , but I prefer to think its because most folk like myself have suffered under past labour administrations at various levels and are therefore engaging our brains . |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2024 12:12:39 GMT
And you haven't learned anything from their successes. That's the trouble with labour though isn't it? the cons vastly outweigh the pros , hence why so many of the electorate won't vote them. I know there are multiple ways I parted company with Labour in the Blair years. Some of them policy failures. Some of them just bad policies. And the toadying to Bush and Murdoch both loom large. If I were to list everything that was bad or wrong, this would indeed be a very long post. But purely in the interests of balance, I will state what I think their main successes were. For the first time we had a national minimum wage. We had devolution for Scotland and Wales, and the Good Friday agreement in Northern Ireland. NHS waiting lists came down substantially. We had working tax credits to support the low paid and a minimum income guarantee for pensioners. Free bus travel and winter fuel payments for the latter as well. Sure start centres. More investment in education. Introduction of the social chapter improving workers' rights. Paid maternity leave.I am struggling to think of much more. It is not a very long list and many of the above were not perfect. The minimum wage for example was set at a very low level and stayed there. The Tories, incredibly, have been far more ambitious in raising its real value. And much of the investment in the NHS was achieved via PFI, and the NHS is saddled with the costs of that today. And working tax credits were very hit and miss, excluding many part time workers, and most childless people under 25, whilst many of the payments to pensioners were unneeded and therefore wasteful. I can for example totally understand why granny in her bungalow might need winter fuel payments, but struggle to understand why Peter Stringfellow in his mansion does. Nevertheless all that I listed above were real improvements which the Tories of the day had they been in power were highly unlikely to have delivered. They had totally opposed the social chapter and minimum wage for example. This is a credit where credit is due post. Were I to make a post listing all that was bad, it would be a post so long that it would take me hours to concoct it and few would bother reading it due to the massive number of words necessary to paint the sorry picture in full, lol. But these centrist types who laughably think the rest of us are the biased ones will be along in due course to rubbish the above and indulge in another spot of blinkered hero worship and remind us of how fantastic it all was. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 20, 2024 12:25:43 GMT
That's the trouble with labour though isn't it? the cons vastly outweigh the pros , hence why so many of the electorate won't vote them. I know there are multiple ways I parted company with Labour in the Blair years. Some of them policy failures. Some of them just bad policies. And the toadying to Bush and Murdoch both loom large. If I were to list everything that was bad or wrong, this would indeed be a very long post. But purely in the interests of balance, I will state what I think their main successes were. For the first time we had a national minimum wage. We had devolution for Scotland and Wales, and the Good Friday agreement in Northern Ireland. NHS waiting lists came down substantially. We had working tax credits to support the low paid and a minimum income guarantee for pensioners. Free bus travel and winter fuel payments for the latter as well. Sure start centres. More investment in education. Introduction of the social chapter improving workers' rights. Paid maternity leave.I am struggling to think of much more. It is not a very long list and many of the above were not perfect. The minimum wage for example was set at a very low level and stayed there. The Tories, incredibly, have been far more ambitious in raising its real value. And much of the investment in the NHS was achieved via PFI, and the NHS is saddled with the costs of that today. And working tax credits were very hit and miss, excluding many part time workers, and most childless people under 25, whilst many of the payments to pensioners were unneeded and therefore wasteful. I can for example totally understand why granny in her bungalow might need winter fuel payments, but struggle to understand why Peter Stringfellow in his mansion does. Nevertheless all that I listed above were real improvements which the Tories of the day had they been in power were highly unlikely to have delivered. They had totally opposed the social chapter and minimum wage for example. This is a credit where credit is due post. Were I to make a post listing all that was bad, it would be a post so long that it would take me hours to concoct it and few would bother reading it to to the number of words necesssary to paint the sorry picture in full, lol. But these centrist types who laughably think the rest of us are the biased ones will be along in due course to rubbish the above and indulge in another spot of blinkered hero worship about remind us of how fantastic it all was. devolution was a policy labour were `forced` to introduce dragging their heels as I have said many a time by the diktats of the council of Europe . I posted a link to it for Bancroft on another thread. It wasn't some masterful policy labour introduced to help the Scottish people. They spent a century talking about home rule( devolution for Scotland within the empire) before they were forced into acting on repeated broken promises they consistently ignored when in power. To try and take the credit( labour not you) for something that everyone's knows they were deeply unhappy about introducing with one arm up their back gritting their teeth is partly why I despise labour and their utter total duplicity. same with the Good Friday agreement , once more , something that had to be dealt with unwillingly and was equally enforced by the European Union , who funded a lot of things in Northern Ireland , and the American administration at the time. It was a joint effort , not labours solely to claim. The minimum wage as predicted has now become the maximum wage for the low paid , and labour bitterly opposed the introduction of free bus travel for under 18s in Scotland. I could go on . I speak for myself , coming from a working class background , that every time labour are in charge at any level , be it Westminster , devolved governance , council and constituency , I am personally worse off. in the supposed halcyon days of the last blairite administration , I was made redundant three times in a five year period, and struggled in many other ways , and it wasn't till both the snp and tories came into power, that I recovered re trained in another industry and started my own business and bought my house. All parties have pros and cons , I fully agree . Labour though are one of the most duplicitous and untrustworthy parties in the uk that I have ever come across , and they have betrayed not just Scotland , but the working class of the uk repeatedly. |
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Post by Vinny on Jan 20, 2024 12:25:50 GMT
The donkey work for peace in Northern Ireland came under the Thatcher and Major governments. Labour simply picked up the baton for the final straight and claimed all the credit.
What they really did was surrender to the IRA.
There was no requirement for disarmament, even after Omagh.
As for the EU they did nothing to prevent terrorism in the UK, Spain or anywhere.
And free movement of people, that is a nice idea with lots of unfortunate flaws.
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