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Post by wapentake on Jan 5, 2024 19:34:45 GMT
Absolute disgrace that people like him are still being failed,perhaps a bit less spent on twenties plenty and more on mental health services might have saved him. link
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2024 22:24:17 GMT
Fifteen people kill themselves each day in the UK. Our mental health services are overwhelmed. We should be able to give extra care to ex-military people, but government seems to treat them as if they are disposable goods. Perhaps I'm being harsh, but so many end up on the streets, relationships break down owing to PTSD and the like. The answer isn't entirely money, it's care and compassion.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jan 5, 2024 22:35:43 GMT
Fifteen people kill themselves each day in the UK. Our mental health services are overwhelmed. We should be able to give extra care to ex-military people, but government seems to treat them as if they are disposable goods. Perhaps I'm being harsh, but so many end up on the streets, relationships break down owing to PTSD and the like. The answer isn't entirely money, it's care and compassion. The issue is that if you sign up, you end up being trained, and that training is psychologically harmful. The reason is in a normal balanced individual there is no desire to go and kill someone you don't even know, so being told to do so is not going to work very well until you are trained to kill on command without running it through your head first. Like any drug, the training both has the effects you take the drug for and a number of unwanted side effects. So in the case of the military, as you retire it is impossible just to forget all you have been trained and revert back to a normal state you were in prior to training. Looking at it this way, I'd say there is traction to the argument that those who train them have a responsibility to return them to normal after they have finished employing them. Instead it seems they are dishonest about the effects of training, and any malfunction on civvy street would be put down to the responsibility of the individual, even though that individual might be experiencing a clockwork orange situation. I've known people who have and it is very unpleasant. One I knew killed himself.
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Post by Cartertonian on Jan 6, 2024 9:36:55 GMT
Given my clinical background (25 yrs as a military mental health nurse) and current research interest (military mental health), I could write a 'tl;dr' piece on this, but few would read it.
More simply, twenty-four years ago, the government introduced the first three National Service Frameworks, aimed at gripping the three most important health challenges. One was on cancer care, one was on coronary care...and the third was on mental health, so the problem was recognised and formally acknowledged then. What's happened since is less to do with government intent and more to do with persistent negative attitudes and scepticism in wider society adversely influencing government decision-making.
The military is a microcosm of mainstream society, in which you can see both extremes. The dominant military psyche is one in which mental health problems are seen as signs of weakness, so you can imagine the confusion and distress caused when warrior alpha males find themselves stricken with something the don't believe in (mental health problems) and that they believe is a sign of their own weakness. In my extensive experience, though, the most passionate advocates for more and better mental health services are those who went through this experience. The current Chief of the General Staff, General Sir Patrick Sanders, is one such example, as is Major Glenn Houghton, formerly Senior Enlisted Advisor to the Chiefs of Staff Committee and also, if you like popular references, Jason Fox of SAS: Who Dares Wins.
In relation to this and far too many other cases, the problem is the gap in service provision between what is available to service personnel whilst serving and what is then available to them in the NHS after they have left.
My last job in uniform was running the UK's largest military mental health team. Our KPIs were to see urgent referrals in 24 hours and routine referrals within 2 weeks, after which definitive treatment would begin immediately. Compare that with what is available in the NHS.
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Post by Vinny on Jan 6, 2024 9:45:50 GMT
It is absolutely tragic. Another thing worth considering too. I have friends who served in Afghanistan. I know a guy who lost a leg and has severe scarring. The West handed back Afghanistan to the Taliban instead of doing the job properly and basically destroying the Taliban through education and the age timebomb none of us can avoid. It would have cost an absolute fortune and taken 60-100 years, but it would have worked. The betrayal regarding Afghanistan must weight heavily on people who served, and were injured, people who served and fought, people who served and saw friends die.
After all, what was the point? It's back to square one.
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Post by Cartertonian on Jan 6, 2024 9:58:38 GMT
I don't want to divert this thread too far away from the OP, but one of the things military leaders know that political leaders either don't know or too readily dismiss is that you can't fight an idea. I was taught that at Staff College, too. Even today in Israel/Gaza, the battle is not between peoples, but between ideas. You can kill people, but you can't kill ideas.
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Post by Vinny on Jan 6, 2024 10:06:36 GMT
You're right, and I guess what I'm talking about is a topic worthy of it's own thread.
But to surrender, and just leave Afghanistan back in square one after so much blood and sacrifice must have a heartbreaking effect on those who served.
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Post by Cartertonian on Jan 6, 2024 10:25:50 GMT
Yes, Vinny...you're right and it does. Carl von Clausewitz said that, 'war is politics by other means'. From my perspective - which I appreciate is biased - many small wars are an extension of Clausewitz' observation. That war in Afghanistan wasn't prosecuted because we in the West were offended at the horrific medieval regime in that country, but because that regime was using terror to project its own ideas onto the West. We were therefore trying to use military force as a political tool, because any military commander would tell you that, as a military objective, it was unsound. As I noted earlier, when an individual's core beliefs and assumptions about themselves and their world are challenged or broken, that has a profound psychological effect. Most if not all service personnel believe that when they are deployed they are 'doing the right thing'. When it becomes clear that they were not, it can have a crushing effect. When I deployed to Iraq, I did not go to fight the enemy (even though the enemy tried to fight me). I was there to provided medical support to our own 3 PARA and their Australian equivalent, who were themselves providing force protection to Japanese military engineers who were rebuilding roads, schools and hospitals that Saddam had destroyed. So I had a clear sense of mission and of moral justification. Troops in Afghanistan were facing a very different set of circumstances. The other thing is this; a friend of mine was in Afghanistan as a major in an infantry battalion. I came to know him as he volunteered to be one of my research subjects for my PhD. He grew up in a military family and had wanted to be a soldier since he first picked up a stick and pretended it was a rifle, as a toddler. However, after several very 'crunchy' (as we say in the trade! ) tours on HERRICK, he developed PTSD and chronic depression and in his personal reflections during our research interviews admitted that he felt his own core beliefs and assumptions about 'being a soldier' had been crushed and exposed as folly. That's a hard lesson, but one many veterans learn. For some, it's too much.
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Post by wapentake on Jan 6, 2024 10:41:36 GMT
My wife back in the nineties worked with a lot of ex servicemen,they weren’t from the later conflicts and I guess majority were not regular servicemen but conscripts who served in WW2.
They were in the later stages of their life some very near the end and they would sit and cry at what they’d seen and done and feel guilty for both.
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Post by Cartertonian on Jan 6, 2024 10:55:03 GMT
Twenty-five years ago, I looked after a WW2 veteran who had kept himself together for fifty years until his wife died...and then ended up hospitalised with his PTSD.
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Post by jonksy on Jan 6, 2024 12:26:25 GMT
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Post by johnofgwent on Jan 6, 2024 18:22:21 GMT
Absolute disgrace that people like him are still being failed,perhaps a bit less spent on twenties plenty and more on mental health services might have saved him. linkanother result of Blair’s destruction of a unified, UK wide health service. Note carefully his move to wales meant he was put at the bottom of the queue behind irish tinkers and asylum seekers of course Pro devolutionists must he really fucking proud of themselves.
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Post by Red Rackham on Jan 6, 2024 18:42:27 GMT
Absolute disgrace that people like him are still being failed,perhaps a bit less spent on twenties plenty and more on mental health services might have saved him. linkTragic. RIP that man.
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Post by Red Rackham on Jan 6, 2024 19:14:39 GMT
Given my clinical background (25 yrs as a military mental health nurse) and current research interest (military mental health), I could write a 'tl;dr' piece on this, but few would read it. More simply, twenty-four years ago, the government introduced the first three National Service Frameworks, aimed at gripping the three most important health challenges. One was on cancer care, one was on coronary care...and the third was on mental health, so the problem was recognised and formally acknowledged then. What's happened since is less to do with government intent and more to do with persistent negative attitudes and scepticism in wider society adversely influencing government decision-making. The military is a microcosm of mainstream society, in which you can see both extremes. The dominant military psyche is one in which mental health problems are seen as signs of weakness, so you can imagine the confusion and distress caused when warrior alpha males find themselves stricken with something the don't believe in (mental health problems) and that they believe is a sign of their own weakness. In my extensive experience, though, the most passionate advocates for more and better mental health services are those who went through this experience. The current Chief of the General Staff, General Sir Patrick Sanders, is one such example, as is Major Glenn Houghton, formerly Senior Enlisted Advisor to the Chiefs of Staff Committee and also, if you like popular references, Jason Fox of SAS: Who Dares Wins. In relation to this and far too many other cases, the problem is the gap in service provision between what is available to service personnel whilst serving and what is then available to them in the NHS after they have left. My last job in uniform was running the UK's largest military mental health team. Our KPIs were to see urgent referrals in 24 hours and routine referrals within 2 weeks, after which definitive treatment would begin immediately. Compare that with what is available in the NHS. Carty in my experience, and this only became obvious to me in later years, the problem was not so much the availability of mental health provision, the problem was accessing it. There was no one at regimental level who understood mental health. Some people didn't know they needed help and there was no one there to tell them they needed help. This resulted in more than one tragedy that at the time was put down to other things, but with the luxury of time I can look back and see things that were not obvious at the time. Things that I'm sure a mental health care professional would have seen and problems could have been addressed. The macho environment probably didn't help, but regardless, there was no one to speak to at regimental level. I suspect, I hope, things have changed.
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Post by Totheleft on Jan 8, 2024 19:02:40 GMT
The Mental health issue is one of the reasons a professional Army should be disbanded and replaced by a territorial army.
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