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Post by Pacifico on Dec 29, 2023 18:07:41 GMT
We cannot do anything about it as both China and India are determined to expand their carbon emissions. We have set the example and they have told us to take a hike so the costs will occur irrespective of what we do. So best to be prepared for what will happen if it is true that CO2 will lead to run away global warming. So far the evidence that the models and the predictions will come true is pretty thin on the ground. Best we stop our sackcloth and ashes approach and concentrate on the welfare of the British people. . Be careful not to underestimate them. China does not have a lot of oil and is forever in need of more energy for its factories. It has the greatest incentive to generate that energy at home, away from US military vulnerabilities. They need to stop increasing their output first. China claims that it will hit peak output before 2030 - we shall see. |
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Post by Bentley on Dec 29, 2023 18:25:20 GMT
We cannot do anything about it as both China and India are determined to expand their carbon emissions. We have set the example and they have told us to take a hike so the costs will occur irrespective of what we do. So best to be prepared for what will happen if it is true that CO2 will lead to run away global warming. So far the evidence that the models and the predictions will come true is pretty thin on the ground. Best we stop our sackcloth and ashes approach and concentrate on the welfare of the British people. Many people are now predicting China will hit carbon neutrality first. Be careful not to underestimate them. China does not have a lot of oil and is forever in need of more energy for its factories. It has the greatest incentive to generate that energy at home, away from US military vulnerabilities. Wishful thinking . There is plenty of cheap energy from Russia atm. |
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Post by jonksy on Dec 29, 2023 18:30:36 GMT
We cannot do anything about it as both China and India are determined to expand their carbon emissions. We have set the example and they have told us to take a hike so the costs will occur irrespective of what we do. So best to be prepared for what will happen if it is true that CO2 will lead to run away global warming. So far the evidence that the models and the predictions will come true is pretty thin on the ground. Best we stop our sackcloth and ashes approach and concentrate on the welfare of the British people. Many people are now predicting China will hit carbon neutrality first. Be careful not to underestimate them. China does not have a lot of oil and is forever in need of more energy for its factories. It has the greatest incentive to generate that energy at home, away from US military vulnerabilities. Whats i china doing about their forests BVL?
Disposable Chopstick Demand Is Killing China's Forests As Annual Production Reaches 80 Billion.
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Post by zanygame on Dec 29, 2023 19:14:29 GMT
Reducing ours still has an effect. So does buying less new stuff and repairing old so China don't manufacture so much of our stuff for us. But I asked: Have any of you considered the cost of doing nothing. Especially those who say net zero is too expensive. As for sack cloth and ashes. 1, I don't see anyone in sackcloth as yet. 2, In order to know if net zero costs more you need an idea of what doing nothing costs. The cost of doing nothing was in my reply as that cost will be incurred no matter how much we do to show others how it is done. China is still manufacturing much of what we need instead of us as that helps our descent to net zero but is realistically a nonsense in terms of CO2 emissions. The evidence that CO2 is the primary cause is still pretty thin on the ground and the predictions from suspect models are rarely coming true in any size shape or form. 1 It is a metaphor, our approach is one of self abasement to achieve that which other countries are not only reluctant to achieve but also seem set on not even attempting to achieve. 2 Tell us what doing nothing will cost, tell us what doing all we can and most others carrying on as normal will cost? What will be the effect on the UK of climate change and what do we have to do to meet that challenge? I'm not doing another round of this with you Sandy. You dent evidence that Co2 causes warming despite proof it does. You hide behind the idea that we can't prove what happens in the laboratory will happen in the field. Whilst failing to offer any theory as to what is causing the global warming we see. That's 5,000,000,000,000,000,000 Joules of energy to warm the earth 1°C. Your conjuring tricks involve saying some temperature readings are wrong, but not what percentage nor how many read to high or too low. Smoke and mirrors. And no one in authority agrees with you. So for the purposes of this conversation I will assume AGW is real and increasingly perilous. China might be producing evermore of the worlds goods, but that means someone else is not. And China is as keen to switch to renewable fossil free energy as any country. India is not! But they must be bought on board, two ways. One with tariffs. Two by making renewable a viable proposition, the very thing you keep saying we need to do for the British customer. Back on subject. Heat pumps are the next phase in this fight and like electric cars there will be clickbait stories and design problems as we perfect systems for each situation. You will see the heat pump equivalent of sharing your charging point and faster charging batteries. Question for you. If global warming was not part of the question would you say heat pumps work or not. Would you agree with me that they are better as warm air blowers than water boilers. (Not sure if you know how they work.) |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 29, 2023 19:19:20 GMT
SP asked: "What will be the effect on the UK of climate change and what do we have to do to meet that challenge?" I've just been reading a very interesting Defra report on UK food security and this is presented as one of its 'key messages': "The biggest medium to long term risk to the UK’s domestic production comes from climate change and other environmental pressures like soil degradation, water quality and biodiversity. Wheat yields dropped by 40% in 2020 due to heavy rainfall and droughts at bad times in the growing season. Although they have bounced back in 2021, this is an indicator of the effect that increasingly unreliable weather patterns may have on future production." I'll probably start a new thread to discuss that general topic over the weekend. I pointed out the irregularity of rainfall on another thread, but Sandy retorted with charts showing the overall rainfall was average. Totally ignoring the idea that it fell at the wrong times in the wrong amounts. All the farmers I know complained of bone dry soil and flash flooding. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 29, 2023 19:22:20 GMT
Many people are now predicting China will hit carbon neutrality first. Be careful not to underestimate them. China does not have a lot of oil and is forever in need of more energy for its factories. It has the greatest incentive to generate that energy at home, away from US military vulnerabilities. They need to stop increasing their output first. China claims that it will hit peak output before 2030 - we shall see. As I said. China is making more of the worlds goods, but that means others are producing less. China is going both nuclear and renewable on a gigantic scale, but it takes time with a growing economy producing evermore of the worlds goods. That does not entitle us to sit on our laurels and do nothing. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 29, 2023 20:47:10 GMT
The cost of doing nothing was in my reply as that cost will be incurred no matter how much we do to show others how it is done. China is still manufacturing much of what we need instead of us as that helps our descent to net zero but is realistically a nonsense in terms of CO2 emissions. The evidence that CO2 is the primary cause is still pretty thin on the ground and the predictions from suspect models are rarely coming true in any size shape or form. 1 It is a metaphor, our approach is one of self abasement to achieve that which other countries are not only reluctant to achieve but also seem set on not even attempting to achieve. 2 Tell us what doing nothing will cost, tell us what doing all we can and most others carrying on as normal will cost? What will be the effect on the UK of climate change and what do we have to do to meet that challenge? I'm not doing another round of this with you Sandy. You dent evidence that Co2 causes warming despite proof it does. You hide behind the idea that we can't prove what happens in the laboratory will happen in the field. Whilst failing to offer any theory as to what is causing the global warming we see. That's 5,000,000,000,000,000,000 Joules of energy to warm the earth 1°C. Your conjuring tricks involve saying some temperature readings are wrong, but not what percentage nor how many read to high or too low. Smoke and mirrors. And no one in authority agrees with you. So for the purposes of this conversation I will assume AGW is real and increasingly perilous. China might be producing evermore of the worlds goods, but that means someone else is not. And China is as keen to switch to renewable fossil free energy as any country. India is not! But they must be bought on board, two ways. One with tariffs. Two by making renewable a viable proposition, the very thing you keep saying we need to do for the British customer. Back on subject. Heat pumps are the next phase in this fight and like electric cars there will be clickbait stories and design problems as we perfect systems for each situation. You will see the heat pump equivalent of sharing your charging point and faster charging batteries. Question for you. If global warming was not part of the question would you say heat pumps work or not. Would you agree with me that they are better as warm air blowers than water boilers. (Not sure if you know how they work.) OK lets not do another round but you seem determined to have the final say. I see you are back to global warming and there are many scientists, commentators and learned individuals who dispute the narrative many for the simple reason that observed warming is not actually consistent either in its measurement or its application to models but lets leave it at that, temporarily. So if we assume that warming is real, is man made and increasingly perilous what should we do about it. China is going to dramatically increase CO2 emissions over the next decade and if they achieve net zero it will be by the sleight of hand of carbon capture and offsetting which accounts for about 30% of our reduction if I recall. Tariffs will lead to inflation here. The elephant in the room of course in any attempt to reach net zero is of course intrinsically bound with population and immigration. If one intends to go to net zero it is idiotic as any principle to increase the population as that increases the carbon footprint. So the policies of netzero and shall we say relaxed immigration rules are totally incompatible and spell the lie to at least one of them. If we are in peril it is a crazy situation. I have taken a passing interest in heat pumps in the past as a means of house heating but with a woodburner burning driftwood that did our hot water heating and cooking it was only a look to the future as we became older and less able to source and prepare the wood. With our wood central heating breaking down ad new regs forbidding repair by qualified tradesmen then I have to consider different options although basic electric heaters are still an option that works most of teh time as I only need about an extra ten Kw daily even in really cold spells which we do not really get here on the coast. What was significant on my first look at them was the prohibitive cost of installation. My wife tends to find warm air blowers quite debilitating as they tend to dry the air and can sometimes feel as though they are only blowing cold air around. So radiators would be our preference most especially as our temperature usually sits well above freezing most of the winter. As regards efficiency I have no real clear idea but it is something I will look at as the dictats to turn to heat pumps become ever more apparent. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 29, 2023 21:01:13 GMT
SP asked: "What will be the effect on the UK of climate change and what do we have to do to meet that challenge?" I've just been reading a very interesting Defra report on UK food security and this is presented as one of its 'key messages': "The biggest medium to long term risk to the UK’s domestic production comes from climate change and other environmental pressures like soil degradation, water quality and biodiversity. Wheat yields dropped by 40% in 2020 due to heavy rainfall and droughts at bad times in the growing season. Although they have bounced back in 2021, this is an indicator of the effect that increasingly unreliable weather patterns may have on future production." I'll probably start a new thread to discuss that general topic over the weekend. I pointed out the irregularity of rainfall on another thread, but Sandy retorted with charts showing the overall rainfall was average. Totally ignoring the idea that it fell at the wrong times in the wrong amounts. All the farmers I know complained of bone dry soil and flash flooding. The irregularity of rainfall is a feature of our weather charts and records if you only care to carefully peruse them. As regards England the weather we have now is similar on average to the weather over the last century, we have had droughts, we have had wet spells we have had dry periods and we have had sudden downpours that just runs off. These are not new conditions they clearly exist in the weather records. Gilbert White in his Selborne Natural History recorded in detail the many changes he observed during his life and all the vagaries of the weather and the seasons and that is 18th century. If farmers have ten good growing years they cannot expect every year to be the same as that is not weather. 1976, 1963, 1947, 1940 and a host other years taught us that in my and my parents lifetimes. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 29, 2023 22:10:58 GMT
They need to stop increasing their output first. China claims that it will hit peak output before 2030 - we shall see. As I said. China is making more of the worlds goods, but that means others are producing less. China is going both nuclear and renewable on a gigantic scale, but it takes time with a growing economy producing evermore of the worlds goods. That does not entitle us to sit on our laurels and do nothing. Who is sitting on their laurels - we have done more than any other county. Time for someone else to take the lead. As we have already done more than anyone else what difference do you think it has made to climate change? |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 29, 2023 22:37:23 GMT
I'm not doing another round of this with you Sandy. You dent evidence that Co2 causes warming despite proof it does. You hide behind the idea that we can't prove what happens in the laboratory will happen in the field. Whilst failing to offer any theory as to what is causing the global warming we see. That's 5,000,000,000,000,000,000 Joules of energy to warm the earth 1°C. Your conjuring tricks involve saying some temperature readings are wrong, but not what percentage nor how many read to high or too low. Smoke and mirrors. And no one in authority agrees with you. So for the purposes of this conversation I will assume AGW is real and increasingly perilous. China might be producing evermore of the worlds goods, but that means someone else is not. And China is as keen to switch to renewable fossil free energy as any country. India is not! But they must be bought on board, two ways. One with tariffs. Two by making renewable a viable proposition, the very thing you keep saying we need to do for the British customer. Back on subject. Heat pumps are the next phase in this fight and like electric cars there will be clickbait stories and design problems as we perfect systems for each situation. You will see the heat pump equivalent of sharing your charging point and faster charging batteries. Question for you. If global warming was not part of the question would you say heat pumps work or not. Would you agree with me that they are better as warm air blowers than water boilers. (Not sure if you know how they work.) OK lets not do another round but you seem determined to have the final say. I see you are back to global warming and there are many scientists, commentators and learned individuals who dispute the narrative many for the simple reason that observed warming is not actually consistent either in its measurement or its application to models but lets leave it at that, temporarily. So if we assume that warming is real, is man made and increasingly perilous what should we do about it. China is going to dramatically increase CO2 emissions over the next decade and if they achieve net zero it will be by the sleight of hand of carbon capture and offsetting which accounts for about 30% of our reduction if I recall. Tariffs will lead to inflation here. The elephant in the room of course in any attempt to reach net zero is of course intrinsically bound with population and immigration. If one intends to go to net zero it is idiotic as any principle to increase the population as that increases the carbon footprint. So the policies of netzero and shall we say relaxed immigration rules are totally incompatible and spell the lie to at least one of them. If we are in peril it is a crazy situation. I have taken a passing interest in heat pumps in the past as a means of house heating but with a woodburner burning driftwood that did our hot water heating and cooking it was only a look to the future as we became older and less able to source and prepare the wood. With our wood central heating breaking down ad new regs forbidding repair by qualified tradesmen then I have to consider different options although basic electric heaters are still an option that works most of teh time as I only need about an extra ten Kw daily even in really cold spells which we do not really get here on the coast. What was significant on my first look at them was the prohibitive cost of installation. My wife tends to find warm air blowers quite debilitating as they tend to dry the air and can sometimes feel as though they are only blowing cold air around. So radiators would be our preference most especially as our temperature usually sits well above freezing most of the winter. As regards efficiency I have no real clear idea but it is something I will look at as the dictats to turn to heat pumps become ever more apparent. I'll leave yours the last say on AGW. The elephant in the room doesn't really exist. Net zero can apply to 70m people almost as easily as 68m. For its done on a personal basis. Your wood burner is a fair idea, but not practical on a national scale. We find our heat pumps dry the air if we use them to cool but not when heating. I agree on the feeling of cold air, when we first got ours I thought they weren't working, but put a thermometer in front of it and it reads 21 degrees. So put the fans on low and point them downwards. Our house sits at 21 degrees all the time. On fitting. Yes again we agree, the complex hot water radiator systems are very expensive to install and have many issues because of the pressures needed to raise the heat. That's why I am pushing my MP to consider these. www.electriq.co.uk/p/iqool-smart12hp/electriq-iqoolsmart12hpfor subsidy. They can be installed by a competent DIYer or local tradesman |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 29, 2023 22:39:30 GMT
As I said. China is making more of the worlds goods, but that means others are producing less. China is going both nuclear and renewable on a gigantic scale, but it takes time with a growing economy producing evermore of the worlds goods. That does not entitle us to sit on our laurels and do nothing. Who is sitting on their laurels - we have done more than any other county. Time for someone else to take the lead. As we have already done more than anyone else what difference do you think it has made to climate change? Yes and I'm pleased. I was talking about those on here who wish us to stop and seek excuses to do so. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 29, 2023 23:31:28 GMT
archive.ph/CPjY5Looks to me (archive of the times april 2023) that sales are ‘an embarrasment’
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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 29, 2023 23:40:38 GMT
According to heatable.co.uk/boiler-advice a new gas boiler costs £4000. According to The Times article i just cited a ground source heat pump installation could set you back £35000 and i’m not sure if that quote includes the new radiators to deal with the fact the water won’t be as hot so your home will be colder unless to chuck out your existing radiators, and the most you can expect to get back from that compared to a gas boiler is £6000. Over TWENTY years. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 29, 2023 23:51:49 GMT
This is the problem they don't fucking work and are being rejected by the masses. If they were anygood they would sell under their own merits and not have to be forced onto an unwilling public. In a nutshell . If heat pumps were a better option than gas boilers then the public would be buying them in droves . Ditto EVs. Well, yes i probably would. This house has a gas boiler that is twenty four years old, worn, is impossible to get parts for and is on its last legs. As at the age of 66 and already in receipt of state pension, am i I see no logical, credible reason to spend a five figure sum that probably won’t have the digit 1 in the most significant location on technology known to be incapable of heating water to the degree our aged gas boiler can, so certain to leave us feeling colder, when the saving i see quoted amounts to a meagre few hundred pounds a year. |
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Post by jonksy on Dec 30, 2023 8:29:17 GMT
According to heatable.co.uk/boiler-advice a new gas boiler costs £4000. According to The Times article i just cited a ground source heat pump installation could set you back £35000 and i’m not sure if that quote includes the new radiators to deal with the fact the water won’t be as hot so your home will be colder unless to chuck out your existing radiators, and the most you can expect to get back from that compared to a gas boiler is £6000. Over TWENTY years. They recomend a 3 phase supply for these lemons John. That alone could cost you from £3k up to £20k depending where you live.
EDIT...... I suppose you could also install a 22kW charger for your electric lemon on the drive but there are not many BEV's that will handle a charge of that magnitude.
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