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Post by zanygame on Dec 30, 2023 9:10:24 GMT
According to heatable.co.uk/boiler-advice a new gas boiler costs £4000. According to The Times article i just cited a ground source heat pump installation could set you back £35000 and i’m not sure if that quote includes the new radiators to deal with the fact the water won’t be as hot so your home will be colder unless to chuck out your existing radiators, and the most you can expect to get back from that compared to a gas boiler is £6000. Over TWENTY years. Yep, again. Heating water to then pump round your home to radiators is a very poor way to use heat pump technology. Giant radiators and pipes or dig your floor up and put in under floor heating. Just crazy. Air source are just air conditioning units in reverse with higher pressure differentials to enable them to take heat from cold air (minus 10) and convert it to warmer air (plus 22). To try and get that temperature difference up the 90 degrees is just crazy. My suggestion, assuming you want to go green and help with climate change. Buy 3 or 4 air source heat pumps, place two or three in your down stairs spaces and one at the base of your stairs. This will keep your house at a comfortable 21 degrees. (upstairs in my home is about 19 degrees) but I like the bedrooms a bit cooler as this helps sleep. Keep your boiler but only use it to heat your water. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 30, 2023 9:37:21 GMT
In a nutshell . If heat pumps were a better option than gas boilers then the public would be buying them in droves . Ditto EVs. Well, yes i probably would. This house has a gas boiler that is twenty four years old, worn, is impossible to get parts for and is on its last legs. As at the age of 66 and already in receipt of state pension, am i I see no logical, credible reason to spend a five figure sum that probably won’t have the digit 1 in the most significant location on technology known to be incapable of heating water to the degree our aged gas boiler can, so certain to leave us feeling colder, when the saving i see quoted amounts to a meagre few hundred pounds a year. The answer is that radiant heat systems - usually underfloor but occasionally on wall or even ceiling - do not require water to be heated to the temperatures required by metal radiators. Our underfloor heating runs at a water temperature of 35C and practically the entire surface area of the property acts as a giant radiator. One of the properties of underfloor radiant heat systems is that heating the area around your feet provides a physical effect of overall warmth. The same system provides domestic hot water at a temperature of 55C.
All powered by a single air-to-water heat pump which cost little more than a standard gas boiler and water storage tank.
And contrary to Zany's remarks you don't need to dig up your floors to install the piping.
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Post by zanygame on Dec 30, 2023 9:42:46 GMT
Well, yes i probably would. This house has a gas boiler that is twenty four years old, worn, is impossible to get parts for and is on its last legs. As at the age of 66 and already in receipt of state pension, am i I see no logical, credible reason to spend a five figure sum that probably won’t have the digit 1 in the most significant location on technology known to be incapable of heating water to the degree our aged gas boiler can, so certain to leave us feeling colder, when the saving i see quoted amounts to a meagre few hundred pounds a year. The answer is that radiant heat systems - usually underfloor but occasionally on wall or even ceiling - do not require water to be heated to the temperatures required by metal radiators. Our underfloor heating runs at a water temperature of 35C and practically the entire surface area of the property acts as a giant radiator. One of the properties of underfloor radiant heat systems is that heating the area around your feet provides a physical effect of overall warmth. The same system provides domestic hot water at a temperature of 55C.
All powered by a single air-to-water heat pump which cost little more than a standard gas boiler and water storage tank.
And contrary to Zany's remarks you don't need to dig up your floors to install the piping.
Apologies Dan. It was a shortcut for remove your skirting boards, cut down your doors. lay it in every room or accept trip hazards between rooms, re-skim the plaster around the base of each room and re-decorate them all. Oh I forgot: Take up your carpets and refit them, re-tile/ laminate your kitchen, hall, conservatory ... |
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Post by jonksy on Dec 30, 2023 9:43:42 GMT
Well, yes i probably would. This house has a gas boiler that is twenty four years old, worn, is impossible to get parts for and is on its last legs. As at the age of 66 and already in receipt of state pension, am i I see no logical, credible reason to spend a five figure sum that probably won’t have the digit 1 in the most significant location on technology known to be incapable of heating water to the degree our aged gas boiler can, so certain to leave us feeling colder, when the saving i see quoted amounts to a meagre few hundred pounds a year. The answer is that radiant heat systems - usually underfloor but occasionally on wall or even ceiling - do not require water to be heated to the temperatures required by metal radiators. Our underfloor heating runs at a water temperature of 35C and practically the entire surface area of the property acts as a giant radiator. One of the properties of underfloor radiant heat systems is that heating the area around your feet provides a physical effect of overall warmth. The same system provides domestic hot water at a temperature of 55C.
All powered by a single air-to-water heat pump which cost little more than a standard gas boiler and water storage tank.
And contrary to Zany's remarks you don't need to dig up your floors to install the piping.
The UK's older housing stock has solid stone or concrete floors and would require being drilled up insulated and relayed before it would be effective and acceptable for under floor heating. EDIT And BTW the system you are talking about has been used in the USA for over 30 years and doubles up as air conditioning in the summer months. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 30, 2023 9:50:15 GMT
The answer is that radiant heat systems - usually underfloor but occasionally on wall or even ceiling - do not require water to be heated to the temperatures required by metal radiators. Our underfloor heating runs at a water temperature of 35C and practically the entire surface area of the property acts as a giant radiator. One of the properties of underfloor radiant heat systems is that heating the area around your feet provides a physical effect of overall warmth. The same system provides domestic hot water at a temperature of 55C.
All powered by a single air-to-water heat pump which cost little more than a standard gas boiler and water storage tank.
And contrary to Zany's remarks you don't need to dig up your floors to install the piping.
The UK's older housing stock has solid stone or concrete floors and would require being drilled up insulated and relayed before it would be effective and acceptable for under floor heating. EDIT And BTW the system you are talking about has been used in the USA for over 30 years and doubles up as air conditioning in the summer months. Yep. |
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Post by dan dare on Dec 30, 2023 10:06:52 GMT
Trade-offs have to be made certainly, and there's no doubt that the time to install an underfloor radiant heat system is when the property is first built. In fact it's surprising, shocking even, that so few house-builders in the UK even offer this as an option.
It should also be a consideration whenever a property is being renovated, which is long overdue in much of the UK housing stock.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 30, 2023 10:13:06 GMT
Trade-offs have to be made certainly, and there's no doubt that the time to install an underfloor radiant heat system is when the property is first built. In fact it's surprising, shocking even, that so few house-builders in the UK even offer this as an option. It should also be a consideration whenever a property is being renovated, which is long overdue in much of the UK housing stock. I think the biggest consideration is will we have a grid working effectively and generation supplying sufficient electricity that will be able to supply all the power needed so that people can stay warm. If recent experience is anything to go by then power cuts will be regular and if a heat pump is off for three hours on a cold January night then the best insulation in the world will struggle to maintain comfort. During some weather the power has been off for weeks not hours. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 30, 2023 10:46:07 GMT
If the power is out to your heat pump wouldn't it be out to your conventional gas-powered system as well? No power, no circulating pump.
If your property is properly insulated a radiant heat system will maintain comfort in the event of a power outage far better than a conventional radiator system. The former retains heat owing to its thermal mass while once the water stops circulating in a conventional system there is nothing to retain the residual heat as the radiators will quickly become cold.
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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 30, 2023 11:53:41 GMT
Well, yes i probably would. This house has a gas boiler that is twenty four years old, worn, is impossible to get parts for and is on its last legs. As at the age of 66 and already in receipt of state pension, am i I see no logical, credible reason to spend a five figure sum that probably won’t have the digit 1 in the most significant location on technology known to be incapable of heating water to the degree our aged gas boiler can, so certain to leave us feeling colder, when the saving i see quoted amounts to a meagre few hundred pounds a year. The answer is that radiant heat systems - usually underfloor but occasionally on wall or even ceiling - do not require water to be heated to the temperatures required by metal radiators. Our underfloor heating runs at a water temperature of 35C and practically the entire surface area of the property acts as a giant radiator. One of the properties of underfloor radiant heat systems is that heating the area around your feet provides a physical effect of overall warmth. The same system provides domestic hot water at a temperature of 55C.
All powered by a single air-to-water heat pump which cost little more than a standard gas boiler and water storage tank.
And contrary to Zany's remarks you don't need to dig up your floors to install the piping.
Ok, so throw out all our radiators and do this … i start to see why it might cost thirty five grand … I’ll rake a look out of curiosity but i suspect its not for me with three stories… |
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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 30, 2023 11:59:24 GMT
I think the real answer is the home we bought as our first. Timber framed with brick outer shell, massive fibreglass insulation, no cavity, large south facing windows and far smaller north facing ones, gas central heating cost about a hundred pounds a YEAR. Admittedly 1980’s
A shame few companies do mortgages on timber frame properties these days.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 30, 2023 12:14:51 GMT
If the power is out to your heat pump wouldn't it be out to your conventional gas-powered system as well? No power, no circulating pump. If your property is properly insulated a radiant heat system will maintain comfort in the event of a power outage far better than a conventional radiator system. The former retains heat owing to its thermal mass while once the water stops circulating in a conventional system there is nothing to retain the residual heat as the radiators will quickly become cold. I have a solar battery back up for using the circulation pump which is only about 80 watts or thereabouts and I have a 12Kw battery system. I got it initially to take care of the circulating pump and plug in the freezers, we have three, once in a while during any long term power cut. However if I got a gas boiler it would take care of that as well in emergencies. One thing is clear a battery system would never supply the heat needed in winter, half a day if you were lucky. The property is about 20 years old now and it is a suspended floor over a concrete slab, wood clad and insulated to the building regs at the time, or supposedly, there are a couple of areas I have my doubts about. It keeps warm for a reasonable period but 24 hours without heat and it takes a bit of heating as everything indoors starts to cool down |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Dec 30, 2023 12:52:33 GMT
Many people are now predicting China will hit carbon neutrality first. Be careful not to underestimate them. China does not have a lot of oil and is forever in need of more energy for its factories. It has the greatest incentive to generate that energy at home, away from US military vulnerabilities. They need to stop increasing their output first. China claims that it will hit peak output before 2030 - we shall see. China is going forwards not backwards. Output is increasing.
UK may end up third world with a bowl of rice a day.
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 30, 2023 12:53:33 GMT
I suspect more typical of the state of UK housing stock is the parental home my wife and her sister inherited, and in which the latter still lives. A more-or-less standard 3-bed semi, built in the 1930s, in which both girls were born and in my wife's case lived in until she got married.
There must be millions like this up and down the country, few of which will have been significantly upgraded structurally since the 30s. There was no insulation at all until I installed Rockwool in the loft thirty years ago, since when gas heating has been installed, the wood windows replaced by uPVC and the electrical system dated.
But the basic structure of the property and the dozens of identical others on the street and in the neighbourhood is fundamentally no different to the day they were built. It might be argued that even then they are of superior construction to Wimpey-built type efforts from the 70s or 80s, or even present-day equivalents even though government regulations have imposed better standards for energy efficiency.
The UK's biggest challenge isn't to convince consumers of the relative benefits of heat pumps vs boilers but rather to persuade property owners that bringing their properties up to 21st century standards is of greater importance than buying a spiffy new kitchen, a walk-in shower or even a new car.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Dec 30, 2023 13:00:04 GMT
Many people are now predicting China will hit carbon neutrality first. Be careful not to underestimate them. China does not have a lot of oil and is forever in need of more energy for its factories. It has the greatest incentive to generate that energy at home, away from US military vulnerabilities. Wishful thinking . There is plenty of cheap energy from Russia atm. Did you hear about China's city smog? For that reason alone they don't want to burn oil and coal. In a Chinese city you can get a car permit automatically for an EV but only one in about 3 who want to drive a normal car are allowed. For the oil they already use though, it is true, China's Russian mates are seeing them good for oil, at a good price, and same with India. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Dec 30, 2023 13:05:04 GMT
Many people are now predicting China will hit carbon neutrality first. Be careful not to underestimate them. China does not have a lot of oil and is forever in need of more energy for its factories. It has the greatest incentive to generate that energy at home, away from US military vulnerabilities. Whats i china doing about their forests BVL?
Disposable Chopstick Demand Is Killing China's Forests As Annual Production Reaches 80 Billion.
How very creative for the muckrakers. At least their post offices don't put their post office people in prison, by their dodgy creative accounting computing systems. |
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