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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 29, 2023 11:20:10 GMT
I posted a source some weeks detailing heat pump installations across Europe and the UK was at the bottom of the pile by a very wide margin. The top slots were taken by Scandinavian countries where, according to the received wisdom here, they're not supposed to work. rubbish. The majority of heat pumps used in Scandinavia are air to air heat pumps , while in European countries like ze fatherland and Poland , they are air to water heat pumps , so you aren't talking like for like . What's the difference? They both work on the same principles and both provide viable alternatives to conventional space heating.
We have an air-to-water heat pump driving a six-zone radiant heat system and it works perfectly fine. The same systems provides DHW.
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Post by Bentley on Dec 29, 2023 11:31:29 GMT
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Post by thomas on Dec 29, 2023 11:42:36 GMT
rubbish. The majority of heat pumps used in Scandinavia are air to air heat pumps , while in European countries like ze fatherland and Poland , they are air to water heat pumps , so you aren't talking like for like . What's the difference? They both work on the same principles and both provide viable alternatives to conventional space heating.
We have an air-to-water heat pump driving a six-zone radiant heat system and it works perfectly fine. The same systems provides DHW.
My point is you are generalising , and not talking about like for like. Who says heat pumps aren't supposed to work in cold climates? you keep making throw away comments , while generalising without telling us who you are aiming your comments at. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 29, 2023 11:45:07 GMT
I posted a source some weeks detailing heat pump installations across Europe and the UK was at the bottom of the pile by a very wide margin. The top slots were taken by Scandinavian countries where, according to the received wisdom here, they're not supposed to work. not a lot of point comparing us with the Scandinavians when our housing stock is totally different - even the heat pump manufacturers admit that they are not suitable for much of the UK's housing. |
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Post by thomas on Dec 29, 2023 11:54:34 GMT
I posted a source some weeks detailing heat pump installations across Europe and the UK was at the bottom of the pile by a very wide margin. The top slots were taken by Scandinavian countries where, according to the received wisdom here, they're not supposed to work. not a lot of point comparing us with the Scandinavians when our housing stock is totally different - even the heat pump manufacturers admit that they are not suitable for much of the UK's housing. the Scandinavians were overly reliant on oil to keep warm , where in much of Europe and the uk , we have been relying on gas . From what ive read , the Scandinavians have been moving away from oil based heating since the crises of the seventies , while new builds in Scotland and England are still being built with gas boilers. Doesn't the Norwegians also have the shared community district heating , in their big towns and cities? Its like watching water running downhill sometimes with dan , simplistic comparisons and vacuous generalisations .what might work in one country won't in another. The biggest issue I have read regarding heat pumps as you point out is that they won't work apparently in for example Scottish tenements , and of course the collosul cost. The problem with net zero in a nutshell , passing the collosul cost onto the hard pressed consumer. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 29, 2023 11:54:57 GMT
My point is you are generalising , and not talking about like for like.Who says heat pumps aren't supposed to work in cold climates? I'm asking you to explain why you appear to believe that air-to-air heat pumps operate on different principles to air-to-water, or from ground source for that matter. You appear to want to make a major point of out your claim that Scandinavia has gone for the former while the rest of continental Europe has gone for the latter.
I don't know for sure, but it could well have something to do with the contrasting styles of construction. In Scandinavia, as in N. America, timber-frame construction predominates as do forced-air heating and cooling systems the installation of the ducting for which is facilitated by the hollow walls. In the rest of Europe, solid masonry construction is the norm which lends itself more to piped hot (or warm) water systems.
The supposed inability of heat pumps to operate effectively in cold climates is a popular refrain around here. But I'm pleased to note it's apparently not one that you tune in on.
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Post by thomas on Dec 29, 2023 12:00:47 GMT
I'm asking you to explain why you appear to believe that air-to-air heat pumps operate on different principles to air-to-water, or from ground source for that matter. You appear to want to make a major point of out your claim that Scandinavia has gone for the former while the rest of continental Europe has gone for the latter.
I don't know for sure, but it could well have something to do with the contrasting styles of construction. In Scandinavia, as in N. America, timber-frame construction predominates as do forced-air heating and cooling systems the installation of the ducting for which is facilitated by the hollow walls. In the rest of Europe, solid masonry construction is the norm which lends itself to piped water systems.
The supposed inability of heat pumps to operate effectively in cold climates is a popular refrain around here. But I'm pleased to note it's apparently not one that you tune in on.
as I have previously asked you to explain your cryptic comments and vague generalisations. See what I mean? My understanding is that they lose efficiency the colder the temp gets , but will work down to minus 25. What's your understanding of why sales are falling , and they don't appear popular to the masses? thank you , but your pleasure and approval isn't really my concern. Who are you talking about? names? |
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 29, 2023 12:06:56 GMT
The masses out there get their misleading propaganda about heat pumps as well as everything else from the same sources as the masses on here.
I'm not naming names, they know who they are.
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Post by thomas on Dec 29, 2023 12:19:27 GMT
The masses out there get their misleading propaganda about heat pumps as well as everything else from the same sources as the masses on here. I'm not naming names, they know who they are. I don't know who you are talking about hence why I'm asking. Im also saying you are a coward making cryptic comments without addressing the posters you are referring to. What masses? Are you talking about the masses in England where heat pump take up is the lowest apparently in Europe? Yet in the earlier links I posted heat pump sales are down in the continent as well.? What are you saying dan , that the anti EU luddite English rags are brainwashing europeans as well? Zany earlier asked for fact based comments. So far , all we have from you is innuendo , cryptic comments and vague generalisations. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 29, 2023 12:24:27 GMT
Heat pump sales are strongly geared to housing starts, which is probably why they are temporarily down on the continent. Once mortgage rates stabilise it will be back to (heat pump) business as usual.
But no, nobody on the continent pays any attention to the anti-EU Luddite rags that predominate in the legacy media in England. It's more a case of there but for the grace of God, go we.
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Post by thomas on Dec 29, 2023 12:32:24 GMT
Heat pump sales are strongly geared to housing starts, which is probably why they are temporarily down on the continent. Once mortgage rates stabilise it will be back to (heat pump) business as usual. But no, nobody on the continent pays any attention to the anti-EU Luddite rags that predominate in the legacy media in England. It's more a case of there but for the grace of God, go we. evidence please? Political uncertainty and falling gas prices are being given as the reason in this link www.eceee.org/all-news/news/news-2023/european-heat-pump-sales-are-collapsing/#:~:text=(EurActiv%2C%2014%20Dec%202023),uncertainty%20and%20dropping%20gas%20prices. you appear to hate your country desperately dan. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 29, 2023 12:37:56 GMT
It took a turn very much for the worst in 2016.
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Post by zanygame on Dec 29, 2023 13:10:08 GMT
So 40,000 a year installed - compared with 1.8 million boilers.. Massive subsidies for heat-pumps compared with surcharges placed on boilers - this rush for renewables and Net Zero is going to cripple us. 650,000 installed in France. They must be bankrupt. Oh wait they're doing better than us. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 29, 2023 13:15:17 GMT
Be good to get some percentages to go with those scare stories. How man installed, how many removed. Maybe someone on here to has a clue about them might have some figures. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 29, 2023 13:27:53 GMT
They nearly doubled in 2021 and rose again by nearly 40% in 2022. Even in this year from hell another 18,000 were installed in the first half of 2023. But we fall far behind other countries, because of our ignorance on how they work and the terrible clickbait uneducated Brits seem to rely on. Your evidence based replies please. not sure where you are getting your figures from zany , as despite asking for evidence based replies , you offer no link to back up your assertion that heat pump sales have risen. From most articles I have read , the negatives appear to outweigh the positives , and sales are actually falling. The public across Europe including in the yookay don't appear to be on board. here's another link....... Heat pump sales have fallen this year, causing the sector to call for strong policy support in the form of ambitious targets and a comprehensive action plan. Manufacturers have also invested over 7 billion euros in production capacity and training of installers, building on the key role given to heat pumps in the Green Deal, Fit for 55°C package, and in REPowerEU.www.renewableenergymagazine.com/miscellaneous/eu-commission-postpones-heat-pump-plan-until-20231220Yes Thomas. I said: they had fallen this year. Sales rose by nearly 100% in 2021. Another nearly 40% in 2022 and in this terrible year (Cost of living crises) still sold 18,000 in the first half of 2023. There have been many problems with the government backed scheme including the refusal to back the much cheaper, better working and easier to install warm air systems. This is the system I have in my home and it works very well, well enough that several people I know who have been to mine have now gone down that route even without the subsidies. The big problem as I see it is that heat pumps find it relatively easy to raise air temperature by up to 40 degrees. That is to say minus 6°C outside to plus 25°C inside. Where they struggle is raising to by 70 degrees to heat your hot water and radiators. Why the government insist on trying to make them do something they're not so good at eludes me. I have asked my MP but got a stock answer that this is the governments policy. |
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