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Post by dappy on Dec 20, 2023 11:50:40 GMT
Talking of the right, I see the only Reclaim MP has already fallen out with and left the party. What is it about people from that end of the political spectrum that they have to constantly be fighting each other. The old UKIP leader of the week comedy is sadly missed.
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Post by Orac on Dec 20, 2023 12:27:29 GMT
From your first line, it's reasonably clear you are not a conservative - in that you use a description of policy that is used in opposition to conservative policy. From your second line, it seems you can't identify the actual policies and values at stake here. All you have the label 'far right' and 'extremist'. You explain these terms in a self-referential (even circular) way - ie "they are far right because they are extremist and they are extremist because they are far right". Your third line - this is not a conundrum for me because i am not using these silly, meaningless terms. Indeed. So the left's argument runs: "They are far right because we say so" and "They're extremist because we say so".
And, in many cases, these "Far Right" opinions would have been considered mainstream centrist only a few years ago (and still are by most, normal people).
They seem to be attempting to 'disallow' a party with actual conservative policies being available for the public to choose. They have good reason to fear such a prospect. The left has a one-party-only reflex for a reason. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Dec 20, 2023 12:29:24 GMT
Indeed. So the left's argument runs: "They are far right because we say so" and "They're extremist because we say so".
And, in many cases, these "Far Right" opinions would have been considered mainstream centrist only a few years ago (and still are by most, normal people).
They seem to be attempting to 'disallow' a party with actual conservative policies being available for the public to choose. They have good reason to fear such a prospect. The left has a one-party-only reflex for a reason. Yep, and they brook no dissent. Which is why left wing regimes tend to end in violence. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 20, 2023 12:36:26 GMT
The Brothers Of Italy political party is not a political party that WAS far right, it is a political party that IS far right. It has not turned into something resembling the UK Conservative Party ( where Populists are now in open warfare with traditional Conservatives ), it was, and still is a far right political party with established links to Neo Nazi organisations. The BBC is 100% correct, and there is no getting away from it, to say otherwise is a clear distortion of both the truth and reality. Yes it is true that some Labour MPs in their younger days were hot Reds, its common in politics, Winston Churchill was a Liberal, but this has absolutely no bearing on the fact that both Italys Prime Minister and the party she belongs to are Far Right. Here is the problem. When you are seeking to attach labels, who decides what is the correct label? Meloni and her leading members (most of which were never in the MSI and are former Christian Democrats) describe the party as a mainstream conservative party. I'm reading the wiki page right now... and the labelling is all over the place depending on who is the source. So no, the BBC is not 100% correct. They are not stupid, they have read what I have just read and opted to go with sources that label them far-right. They are supposed to show no bias, so surely the sensible position would have been to take the middle ground and use "right-wing populist", rather than going with the extremes. No they should follow their own stated guidelines and attach no label whatsoever and allow commentators to do that. If they read the news and say 'far right' and they do then they are doing exactly what they said they should not do as regards labelling Hamas, which indicates the bias of the BBC. |
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Post by dodgydave on Dec 20, 2023 12:39:10 GMT
The equivelant of the UK Conservative Party in Italy is "Forza Italia" who are described in the Oxford Encyclopedia as "Centre Right". The "Brothers Of Italy" are to the Right of FI and are termed as "far right" and "populist", similar to Reform in the UK. I fail to understand why posters are attempting to push back on what is the blatantly obvious, all for the sake of attempting ( but failing ) to make out that the BBC is making things up. You are missing the point... You quoted Wiki... I read it... and it contains different labels according to the source (ie they range from Conservative >> Right Wing Populist >> Far Right). SO THERE IS NO CONCENSUS. The BBC have CHOSEN to go with the far-right label, because there is NO ESTABLISHED FACT. So the BBC have CHOSEN to suggest Sunak has far-right chums, whilst at the same time BEING ULTRA CAUTIOUS in their labelling of Hamas. You (nor I) know if they are far-right because we have never met them, so we rely on 3rd party sources, and the 3rd party sources have NO CONSENSUS. So for you to claim to 100% know the truth is stepping into the mindset of a conspiracy nutcase. |
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Post by see2 on Dec 20, 2023 12:42:20 GMT
I appose the values and policies that culminate in a parties main approach to improving the economy being 'we need to make the the rich richer'. I don't study the "far right" because I do not agree with extremism of the far-right or the far-left. I am aware of some far-right opinions that I would not think of as extreme, the problem is not what they post about themselves, it is their underlying extremist intent that is the problem. And that will only be exposed if they ever get elected. They are referred to as Far-Right because they are extremists. Part of your conundrum is, that if they are not extremists they are not far-right. From your first line, it's reasonably clear you are not a conservative - in that you use a description of policy that is used in opposition to conservative policy. From your second line, it seems you can't identify the actual policies and values at stake here. All you have the label 'far right' and 'extremist'. You explain these terms in a self-referential (even circular) way - ie "they are far right because they are extremist and they are extremist because they are far right". Your third line - this is not a conundrum for me because i am not using these silly, meaningless terms. I am not an avid Conservative, but I have voted Conservative in the past. It was ridiculous to vote Conservative in 2010 or for most of the time since. My first line is from my observations of Conservatism. It is silly and meaningless to ignore the obvious. My third line highlighted the very thing that you fail to address, with you preferring to dilute or hide away from any criticism of the "far-right". |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 20, 2023 12:44:44 GMT
The equivelant of the UK Conservative Party in Italy is "Forza Italia" who are described in the Oxford Encyclopedia as "Centre Right". The "Brothers Of Italy" are to the Right of FI and are termed as "far right" and "populist", similar to Reform in the UK. I fail to understand why posters are attempting to push back on what is the blatantly obvious, all for the sake of attempting ( but failing ) to make out that the BBC is making things up. Once again what is the truth is neither here nor there. HAMAS are a terror group which is for almost everyone the truth, the BBC will not label them so becasue the BBC says that is attaching a label and making people's minds up for them, yet they attach a far right label to a group without hesitation, a group that many may disagree is far right. The thread title deals with what the BBC have done and it is clear they apply, or do not apply, labels to people as perceived by the left. That is the issue. |
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Post by see2 on Dec 20, 2023 13:06:58 GMT
From your first line, it's reasonably clear you are not a conservative - in that you use a description of policy that is used in opposition to conservative policy. From your second line, it seems you can't identify the actual policies and values at stake here. All you have the label 'far right' and 'extremist'. You explain these terms in a self-referential (even circular) way - ie "they are far right because they are extremist and they are extremist because they are far right". Your third line - this is not a conundrum for me because i am not using these silly, meaningless terms. Indeed. So the left's argument runs: "They are far right because we say so" and "They're extremist because we say so".
And, in many cases, these "Far Right" opinions would have been considered mainstream centrist only a few years ago (and still are by most, normal people).
Far-right refers to the history of those being accused of being far-right. In the minds of the deceivers there are no far-right extremists. Such descriptions only refers to the real Conservatives. LOL Thatcher was as far-Right as they come in this country, thankfully the HoL kept her in check to some degree. She put millions out of work, closed down thousands of small businesses, put many thousands of families into the deprived state of relative poverty, sold off our gas, oil etc. etc. AND QUITE OBVIOUSLY MADE THE RICH RICHER with her Neo Liberal freeing up the financial controls. Starting by selling off shares in the Jewel in the Crown of nationalisation with the sale of Cable & Wireless, sold to her friends in the Stock Market. Given the history of right-wing (and left-wing) control it is a far too dangerous area of politics to be played around with. |
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Post by see2 on Dec 20, 2023 13:28:35 GMT
They seem to be attempting to 'disallow' a party with actual conservative policies being available for the public to choose. They have good reason to fear such a prospect. The left has a one-party-only reflex for a reason. Yep, and they brook no dissent. Which is why left wing regimes tend to end in violence. Your Avatar suits you perfectly. A nasty senile right winger who repeatedly proves his position by his overopinionated criticisms of Labour and the left. Ignoring the Fact that this country is in a mess because it has been dominated by Tory governments for around 50 years since 1951. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 20, 2023 13:45:16 GMT
The equivelant of the UK Conservative Party in Italy is "Forza Italia" who are described in the Oxford Encyclopedia as "Centre Right". The "Brothers Of Italy" are to the Right of FI and are termed as "far right" and "populist", similar to Reform in the UK. I fail to understand why posters are attempting to push back on what is the blatantly obvious, all for the sake of attempting ( but failing ) to make out that the BBC is making things up. You are missing the point... You quoted Wiki... I read it... and it contains different labels according to the source (ie they range from Conservative >> Right Wing Populist >> Far Right). SO THERE IS NO CONCENSUS. The BBC have CHOSEN to go with the far-right label, because there is NO ESTABLISHED FACT. So the BBC have CHOSEN to suggest Sunak has far-right chums, whilst at the same time BEING ULTRA CAUTIOUS in their labelling of Hamas. Indeed. I would just add - Whist at the same being ultra cautious in their labeling of Hamas, despite such available labeling being a legal fact |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 20, 2023 16:04:17 GMT
Indeed. So the left's argument runs: "They are far right because we say so" and "They're extremist because we say so".
And, in many cases, these "Far Right" opinions would have been considered mainstream centrist only a few years ago (and still are by most, normal people).
Far-right refers to the history of those being accused of being far-right. In the minds of the deceivers there are no far-right extremists. Such descriptions only refers to the real Conservatives. LOL Thatcher was as far-Right as they come in this country, thankfully the HoL kept her in check to some degree. She put millions out of work, closed down thousands of small businesses, put many thousands of families into the deprived state of relative poverty, sold off our gas, oil etc. etc. AND QUITE OBVIOUSLY MADE THE RICH RICHER with her Neo Liberal freeing up the financial controls. Starting by selling off shares in the Jewel in the Crown of nationalisation with the sale of Cable & Wireless, sold to her friends in the Stock Market. Given the history of right-wing (and left-wing) control it is a far too dangerous area of politics to be played around with. Neo-liberalism is not a trait of the far right - historically they have gone down the State control of industry route. perhaps this is why those on the Left see so many far-right people - they simply don't know what far-right is. |
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Post by see2 on Dec 20, 2023 17:33:03 GMT
Far-right refers to the history of those being accused of being far-right. In the minds of the deceivers there are no far-right extremists. Such descriptions only refers to the real Conservatives. LOL Thatcher was as far-Right as they come in this country, thankfully the HoL kept her in check to some degree. She put millions out of work, closed down thousands of small businesses, put many thousands of families into the deprived state of relative poverty, sold off our gas, oil etc. etc. AND QUITE OBVIOUSLY MADE THE RICH RICHER with her Neo Liberal freeing up the financial controls. Starting by selling off shares in the Jewel in the Crown of nationalisation with the sale of Cable & Wireless, sold to her friends in the Stock Market. Given the history of right-wing (and left-wing) control it is a far too dangerous area of politics to be played around with. Neo-liberalism is not a trait of the far right - historically they have gone down the State control of industry route. perhaps this is why those on the Left see so many far-right people - they simply don't know what far-right is. Thatcher picked up on Pinochet's far-right neo- liberalism, and you don't get much further Right than Pinochet. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2023 17:45:07 GMT
The equivelant of the UK Conservative Party in Italy is "Forza Italia" who are described in the Oxford Encyclopedia as "Centre Right". The "Brothers Of Italy" are to the Right of FI and are termed as "far right" and "populist", similar to Reform in the UK. I fail to understand why posters are attempting to push back on what is the blatantly obvious, all for the sake of attempting ( but failing ) to make out that the BBC is making things up. Once again what is the truth is neither here nor there. HAMAS are a terror group which is for almost everyone the truth, the BBC will not label them so becasue the BBC says that is attaching a label and making people's minds up for them, yet they attach a far right label to a group without hesitation, a group that many may disagree is far right. The thread title deals with what the BBC have done and it is clear they apply, or do not apply, labels to people as perceived by the left. That is the issue. The topic here is the Far Right coalition which governs Italy, not Hamas or the war in Gaza The BBC is a STATE broadcaster and not a GOVERNMENT broadcaster, the BBC do not have to tow the government line, they are editorialy independent. The BBC would describe the Lib Dems as "centrist" and the Conservatives as "centre right", and Sin Fein as Irish Republican or Irish Nationalist, it would be the correct and definitive way of describing those political parties, just the same as it would also be accurate to describe the Brothers Of Italy Party of Italy "far right". CLUE: The Brothers Of Italy Party is supported by the Mussolini family |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2023 17:56:41 GMT
The equivelant of the UK Conservative Party in Italy is "Forza Italia" who are described in the Oxford Encyclopedia as "Centre Right". The "Brothers Of Italy" are to the Right of FI and are termed as "far right" and "populist", similar to Reform in the UK. I fail to understand why posters are attempting to push back on what is the blatantly obvious, all for the sake of attempting ( but failing ) to make out that the BBC is making things up. You are missing the point... You quoted Wiki... I read it... and it contains different labels according to the source (ie they range from Conservative >> Right Wing Populist >> Far Right). SO THERE IS NO CONCENSUS. The BBC have CHOSEN to go with the far-right label, because there is NO ESTABLISHED FACT. So the BBC have CHOSEN to suggest Sunak has far-right chums, whilst at the same time BEING ULTRA CAUTIOUS in their labelling of Hamas. You (nor I) know if they are far-right because we have never met them, so we rely on 3rd party sources, and the 3rd party sources have NO CONSENSUS. So for you to claim to 100% know the truth is stepping into the mindset of a conspiracy nutcase. Utter bull shit - read any of the on-line biographies of Giorgia Meloni, and learn about her MANY links to neo-fascist organisations. ( LINK ) The Conversation is a fact based, non political publication >> "Giorgia Meloni – the political provocateur set to become Italy’s first far-right leader since Mussolini" theconversation.com/giorgia-meloni-the-political-provocateur-set-to-become-italys-first-far-right-leader-since-mussolini-190116This has become farcical, and you are now just digging yourselves into a hole now |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 20, 2023 18:09:31 GMT
Neo-liberalism is not a trait of the far right - historically they have gone down the State control of industry route. perhaps this is why those on the Left see so many far-right people - they simply don't know what far-right is. Thatcher picked up on Pinochet's far-right neo- liberalism, and you don't get much further Right than Pinochet. Now you are just attempting to rewrite the definition of far-right. The Chicago Boys were following the ideas proposed by Milton Friedman who espoused such 'far-right' policies as a volunteer military, a negative income tax and opposition to the war on drugs and support for drug liberalization policies. This is why I say that left wing see so many far-right - they simply have no idea what the far-right really is and tar everyone they disagree with the name. |
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