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Post by sandypine on Dec 8, 2023 14:24:31 GMT
And therein lies much of the root of the problem. In that English is now totally deprecated into a Nationality yet it was initially used to define a people not just those who lived in England but those who travelled beyond her borders and those born and raised in foreign lands from that stock. Obscuring ethnic English into English brings about the ridiculous situation that anyone can be English and yet many can also be ethnic minorities. It does seem to be a deliberate ploy to bring about the disappearance of a group known as the English and merge them invisibly into an amorphous mass and by such action bring about their extinction. No, it clearly distinguises between English nationality and English ethnicity. I haven't said anyone can be English, I've set definitions which exclude most of the world's and much of England's current population. My definition of English nationality leaves English ethnicity untouched, please stop projecting disgusting slurs onto me. I did not say you did, I implied you are a victim of the outlook that seeks to deprecate English to a Nationality with no ethnic component at all except those who are ethnic minorities.
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 8, 2023 14:26:43 GMT
No, it clearly distinguises between English nationality and English ethnicity. I haven't said anyone can be English, I've set definitions which exclude most of the world's and much of England's current population. My definition of English nationality leaves English ethnicity untouched, please stop projecting disgusting slurs onto me. I did not say you did, I implied you are a victim of the outlook that seeks to deprecate English to a Nationality with no ethnic component at all except those who are ethnic minorities. Nationality and ethnicity are two separate things. You seem determined to blend the two so you can deny people their national identity, essentially erasing English people of certain ethnic backgrounds. There's a word for that sort of thing.
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 8, 2023 14:27:12 GMT
He's not ethnic English but he is English. And since ethnicity is actually what we are discussing in depth why is he not ethnic English No we are discussing Englishness.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 8, 2023 14:30:08 GMT
I did not say you did, I implied you are a victim of the outlook that seeks to deprecate English to a Nationality with no ethnic component at all except those who are ethnic minorities. Nationality and ethnicity are two separate things. You seem determined to blend the two so you can deny people their national identity, essentially erasing English people of certain ethnic backgrounds. There's a word for that sort of thing. Well if one uses a word to describe two different things and the deliberate use of that word is guided towards one use only then that is deprecating the other use of the word. You say you are English and Lammy says he is English yet he is an ethnic minority and you are not, are you?
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Post by sandypine on Dec 8, 2023 14:31:50 GMT
And since ethnicity is actually what we are discussing in depth why is he not ethnic English No we are discussing Englishness. No we are not we have not mentioned Englishness to my recall and if so only in passing. We are discussing the difference between being an English National and an English ethnic.
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 8, 2023 14:37:26 GMT
Nationality and ethnicity are two separate things. You seem determined to blend the two so you can deny people their national identity, essentially erasing English people of certain ethnic backgrounds. There's a word for that sort of thing. Well if one uses a word to describe two different things and the deliberate use of that word is guided towards one use only then that is deprecating the other use of the word. You say you are English and Lammy says he is English yet he is an ethnic minority and you are not, are you? English is a nationality, I was using that word to discuss nationality. Ethnicity is another word meaning something else. Correct, Lammy is an ethnic minority and I am not. We are both English however, because for the millionth time ethnicity and nationality are different things. Let put in the simplest terms I can think of. Chris Evans is a red haired Englishman. I am a blond haired Englishman. We have a different biological characteristic but we are both English, because hair colour and nationality are two different things, with me so far? Lammy is a black Englishman, I am a white Englishman. We are different ethnicities but are both English because ethnicity and nationality are two different things. I really don't know how to make it any simpler than that without getting the crayons out.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 8, 2023 14:49:32 GMT
Well if one uses a word to describe two different things and the deliberate use of that word is guided towards one use only then that is deprecating the other use of the word. You say you are English and Lammy says he is English yet he is an ethnic minority and you are not, are you? English is a nationality, I was using that word to discuss nationality. Ethnicity is another word meaning something else. Correct, Lammy is an ethnic minority and I am not. We are both English however, because for the millionth time ethnicity and nationality are different things. Let put in the simplest terms I can think of. Chris Evans is a red haired Englishman. I am a blond haired Englishman. We have a different biological characteristic but we are both English, because hair colour and nationality are two different things, with me so far? Lammy is a black Englishman, I am a white Englishman. We are different ethnicities but are both English because ethnicity and nationality are two different things. I really don't know how to make it any simpler than that without getting the crayons out. Yes we have been down that road many times if you are both English now try and follow. If you are a white Englishman does that include those who are ethnically English?
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 8, 2023 14:53:49 GMT
English is a nationality, I was using that word to discuss nationality. Ethnicity is another word meaning something else. Correct, Lammy is an ethnic minority and I am not. We are both English however, because for the millionth time ethnicity and nationality are different things. Let put in the simplest terms I can think of. Chris Evans is a red haired Englishman. I am a blond haired Englishman. We have a different biological characteristic but we are both English, because hair colour and nationality are two different things, with me so far? Lammy is a black Englishman, I am a white Englishman. We are different ethnicities but are both English because ethnicity and nationality are two different things. I really don't know how to make it any simpler than that without getting the crayons out. Yes we have been down that road many times if you are both English now try and follow. If you are a white Englishman does that include those who are ethnically English? It depends, ethnic English people are white, but not all white people are ethnic English.
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 8, 2023 15:00:19 GMT
British nationality is bestowed on an individual through either reason of birth or of naturalisation.
Who bestows English nationality on an individual other the FA?
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Post by sandypine on Dec 8, 2023 15:33:48 GMT
Yes we have been down that road many times if you are both English now try and follow. If you are a white Englishman does that include those who are ethnically English? It depends, ethnic English people are white, but not all white people are ethnic English. We are progressing. The ethnic English are wholly within the white English group and Lammy is outside that group so if a reference is made to being ethnically English we can exclude Lammy. Being ethnically English requires whiteness in the first instance but they can live anywhere and be Nationals of anywhere but can still define themselves as English. Would you agree?
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Post by sandypine on Dec 8, 2023 15:40:20 GMT
British nationality is bestowed on an individual through either reason of birth or of naturalisation. Who bestows English nationality on an individual other the FA? My understanding is the legal nationality of England is British so as you say English as a Nationality does not really exist except in sport terms it exists only as a people. The English.
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 8, 2023 15:53:01 GMT
As you say an English nationality does not exist and that's because no state exists to bestow it. While the British state has a monopoly on bestowing British nationality it appears that English nationality is so ephemeral anyone can bestow it on anyone, even themselves. It's meaningless.
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 8, 2023 16:39:22 GMT
Socrates: What is the essence of Englishness? What essential characteristics does an English person have? When we know this, we will know what an English person is.
Wittgenstein: How is the word English person used in language? How does contemporary speech define Englishness? When we know this, we will know what an English person is.
There’s a lot of Socratic thinking in this thread. That way of thinking hasn’t been taken seriously since Wittgenstein.
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Post by Bentley on Dec 8, 2023 16:43:33 GMT
Socrates: What is the essence of Englishness? What essential characteristics does an English person have? When we know this, we will know what an English person is. Wittgenstein: How is the word English person used in language? How does contemporary speech define Englishness? When we know this, we will know what an English person is. There’s a lot of Socratic thinking in this thread. That way of thinking hasn’t been taken seriously since Wittgenstein. I suppose the former claims that the meaning drives language and the latter claims that language drives the meaning .
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 8, 2023 17:14:35 GMT
Socrates: What is the essence of Englishness? What essential characteristics does an English person have? When we know this, we will know what an English person is. Wittgenstein: How is the word English person used in language? How does contemporary speech define Englishness? When we know this, we will know what an English person is. There’s a lot of Socratic thinking in this thread. That way of thinking hasn’t been taken seriously since Wittgenstein. I suppose the former claims that the meaning drives language and the latter claims that language drives the meaning . There is no platonic form of an English person. There is only the concept of an English person. That concept can vary from time to time and place to place. There is no platonic form of an adult. There is only the concept of an adult. That concept can vary from time to time and place to place (for instance, a 13-year-old was once an ‘adult’. But the idea of what an adult is has been reconceived). There is no platonic form of woman. There is only the concept of a woman. That concept can vary from time to time and place to place. There is no platonic form of an insane person. There is only the concept of insanity. That concept can vary from time to time and place to place (for instance, homosexuals were once conceived to be insane). It makes no sense to ponder what an English person is. That will depend on time and place, and even then much will depend on the context, or, to use Wittgenstein's phrase, the language game being played.
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