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Racism
Dec 1, 2023 10:44:35 GMT
Post by sandypine on Dec 1, 2023 10:44:35 GMT
I am saying if it is not morally wrong then what is the problem with it existing. You seem to want to do something about something that you do not find morally wrong. I do not understand why you would do that. It is a bit like saying golf is not morally wrong but needs to be stamped out. When have I said I do not think racism is morally wrong, even positive discrimination?, again you attempt to twist the points. What I do understand is the need to address racism and if you have any better ideas, please tell. Nov 30 0807. Unless you meant something else but I did ask directly
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Racism
Dec 1, 2023 10:52:59 GMT
Post by sandypine on Dec 1, 2023 10:52:59 GMT
To answer Sandy’s question, I suppose it depends on what you define as racism. Generally though my view of an optimum society is that we should try to create a world where as much as possible all human beings have equality of opportunity and hence discrimination based on sex, sexuality, age , colour of skin is very much “morally wrong”. However to create 'equality of opportunity' for all you have to bring down some people's opportunities. If person A's father spends several hours home tutoring him and person B's father goes off to the pub then equality of opportunity does not exist and even worse if person A takes opportunities and person B does not because he would rather go to the pub with his mates then that has a knock on effect. I have had many opportunities I personally blew due to many and varied factors, I also took some opportunities for many and varied reasons. This we call life. If discrimination is now 'morally wrong' why is it allowed to be enacted in law against specific individuals based on race thus negating equality of opportunity for them?
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Deleted Member
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Racism
Dec 1, 2023 11:16:50 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2023 11:16:50 GMT
When have I said I do not think racism is morally wrong, even positive discrimination?, again you attempt to twist the points. What I do understand is the need to address racism and if you have any better ideas, please tell. Nov 30 0807. Unless you meant something else but I did ask directly You are confuddled.
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Racism
Dec 1, 2023 11:52:15 GMT
Post by dappy on Dec 1, 2023 11:52:15 GMT
To answer Sandy’s question, I suppose it depends on what you define as racism. Generally though my view of an optimum society is that we should try to create a world where as much as possible all human beings have equality of opportunity and hence discrimination based on sex, sexuality, age , colour of skin is very much “morally wrong”. However to create 'equality of opportunity' for all you have to bring down some people's opportunities. If person A's father spends several hours home tutoring him and person B's father goes off to the pub then equality of opportunity does not exist and even worse if person A takes opportunities and person B does not because he would rather go to the pub with his mates then that has a knock on effect. I have had many opportunities I personally blew due to many and varied factors, I also took some opportunities for many and varied reasons. This we call life. If discrimination is now 'morally wrong' why is it allowed to be enacted in law against specific individuals based on race thus negating equality of opportunity for them? If I have understood your point, yes it is inevitable that if we can move towards creating equality of opportunity for all, there will be occasions where for example a job will go to a better qualified but previously excluded "gay" person where previously it would have gone to a less qualified "straight" person. I guess that is a moral judgement but that seems a fairer better society to me. It wouldn't be fair if that job went to a less qualified "gay" person. The real world is of course far more complex than the simplistic artificial world of an obscure internet chat room. I have no doubt that we will never fully achieve equality of opportunity for all groups, including for example working class white boys who currently also get a raw deal. That doesn't seem a reason to me not to attempt to go at least part way down the road. It is also perhaps inevitable that in taking measures to promote equality of opportunity, some of those measures in the real world will, with the best of intentions, create other inequalities of opportunity. Where those are identified, we should of course seek to correct those unintended consequences.
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Racism
Dec 1, 2023 13:17:41 GMT
Post by sandypine on Dec 1, 2023 13:17:41 GMT
Nov 30 0807. Unless you meant something else but I did ask directly You are confuddled. It seems fairly clear do you wish to explain what you meant or just leave it. Your choice, as always.
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Racism
Dec 1, 2023 13:24:32 GMT
Post by sandypine on Dec 1, 2023 13:24:32 GMT
However to create 'equality of opportunity' for all you have to bring down some people's opportunities. If person A's father spends several hours home tutoring him and person B's father goes off to the pub then equality of opportunity does not exist and even worse if person A takes opportunities and person B does not because he would rather go to the pub with his mates then that has a knock on effect. I have had many opportunities I personally blew due to many and varied factors, I also took some opportunities for many and varied reasons. This we call life. If discrimination is now 'morally wrong' why is it allowed to be enacted in law against specific individuals based on race thus negating equality of opportunity for them? If I have understood your point, yes it is inevitable that if we can move towards creating equality of opportunity for all, there will be occasions where for example a job will go to a better qualified but previously excluded "gay" person where previously it would have gone to a less qualified "straight" person. I guess that is a moral judgement but that seems a fairer better society to me. It wouldn't be fair if that job went to a less qualified "gay" person. The real world is of course far more complex than the simplistic artificial world of an obscure internet chat room. I have no doubt that we will never fully achieve equality of opportunity for all groups, including for example working class white boys who currently also get a raw deal. That doesn't seem a reason to me not to attempt to go at least part way down the road. It is also perhaps inevitable that in taking measures to promote equality of opportunity, some of those measures in the real world will, with the best of intentions, create other inequalities of opportunity. Where those are identified, we should of course seek to correct those unintended consequences. I do not think you understood at all. The point was that how does one create 'equality of opportunity' when life is largely uneven and decisions made by individuals at any point may create inequality through their own actions. I gave an example above there are many others. If I chose as a youth to spend my money on cigarettes and going to the pub how do you correct that for equality against someone who stayed in and studied. Chances come chances go mostly through individual choice.
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Racism
Dec 1, 2023 13:43:49 GMT
Post by Orac on Dec 1, 2023 13:43:49 GMT
If I have understood your point, yes it is inevitable that if we can move towards creating equality of opportunity for all, there will be occasions where for example a job will go to a better qualified but previously excluded "gay" person where previously it would have gone to a less qualified "straight" person. I guess that is a moral judgement but that seems a fairer better society to me. It wouldn't be fair if that job went to a less qualified "gay" person. The real world is of course far more complex than the simplistic artificial world of an obscure internet chat room. I have no doubt that we will never fully achieve equality of opportunity for all groups, including for example working class white boys who currently also get a raw deal. That doesn't seem a reason to me not to attempt to go at least part way down the road. It is also perhaps inevitable that in taking measures to promote equality of opportunity, some of those measures in the real world will, with the best of intentions, create other inequalities of opportunity. Where those are identified, we should of course seek to correct those unintended consequences. I do not think you understood at all. The point was that how does one create 'equality of opportunity' when life is largely uneven and decisions made by individuals at any point may create inequality through their own actions. I gave an example above there are many others. If I chose as a youth to spend my money on cigarettes and going to the pub how do you correct that for equality against someone who stayed in and studied. Chances come chances go mostly through individual choice. The only way you could verify / measure equality of opportunity is by looking for (demanding) an equality of outcome. Then, of course, you are no longer demanding equality of opportunity, you would be demanding equality of outcome in order to demonstrate equality of opportunity. It's communism by indirect logic
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Racism
Dec 1, 2023 13:49:22 GMT
Post by dappy on Dec 1, 2023 13:49:22 GMT
If I have understood your point, yes it is inevitable that if we can move towards creating equality of opportunity for all, there will be occasions where for example a job will go to a better qualified but previously excluded "gay" person where previously it would have gone to a less qualified "straight" person. I guess that is a moral judgement but that seems a fairer better society to me. It wouldn't be fair if that job went to a less qualified "gay" person. The real world is of course far more complex than the simplistic artificial world of an obscure internet chat room. I have no doubt that we will never fully achieve equality of opportunity for all groups, including for example working class white boys who currently also get a raw deal. That doesn't seem a reason to me not to attempt to go at least part way down the road. It is also perhaps inevitable that in taking measures to promote equality of opportunity, some of those measures in the real world will, with the best of intentions, create other inequalities of opportunity. Where those are identified, we should of course seek to correct those unintended consequences. I do not think you understood at all. The point was that how does one create 'equality of opportunity' when life is largely uneven and decisions made by individuals at any point may create inequality through their own actions. I gave an example above there are many others. If I chose as a youth to spend my money on cigarettes and going to the pub how do you correct that for equality against someone who stayed in and studied. Chances come chances go mostly through individual choice. You work towards giving everyone equality of opportunity knowing you will never fully get there. Whether individuals choose to seize those opportunities is their decision.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 1, 2023 15:06:30 GMT
I do not think you understood at all. The point was that how does one create 'equality of opportunity' when life is largely uneven and decisions made by individuals at any point may create inequality through their own actions. I gave an example above there are many others. If I chose as a youth to spend my money on cigarettes and going to the pub how do you correct that for equality against someone who stayed in and studied. Chances come chances go mostly through individual choice. You work towards giving everyone equality of opportunity knowing you will never fully get there. Whether individuals choose to seize those opportunities is their decision. At what point do you say well you had your chance? Or do you keep on providing endless extra opportunities for those who keep on fucking it up. We are all entitled to a little understanding as callow youths perhaps and given a fresh opportunity to have another go but there much come a time when you throw in the towel. As an example some children are well behaved and from poor families but other children from other poor families act up, misbeahve, are disruptive and aggressive. The latter get paid for outward bound courses, or training courses, or educational visits, the former get largely nothing extra
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Racism
Dec 1, 2023 15:43:29 GMT
Post by dappy on Dec 1, 2023 15:43:29 GMT
I think we are getting a little off the thread title because equality of opportunity applies to all but yes of course it is in society's interests to seek to continue to give people opportunity throughout their lives and certainly to give children and young adults opportunity to turn their lives around even if they have started off down the wrong road - it might just turn some off a life of crime and reduce number of future crime victims. Not sure how turning around the lives of people who have gone down the wrong road relates to seeking as far as possible to provide equality of opportunity for all regardless of sex, sexuality, age, race etc. Are you confusing two unrelated issues?
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Racism
Dec 1, 2023 19:41:03 GMT
Post by sandypine on Dec 1, 2023 19:41:03 GMT
I think we are getting a little off the thread title because equality of opportunity applies to all but yes of course it is in society's interests to seek to continue to give people opportunity throughout their lives and certainly to give children and young adults opportunity to turn their lives around even if they have started off down the wrong road - it might just turn some off a life of crime and reduce number of future crime victims. Not sure how turning around the lives of people who have gone down the wrong road relates to seeking as far as possible to provide equality of opportunity for all regardless of sex, sexuality, age, race etc. Are you confusing two unrelated issues? Then that is not equality of opportunity that is extra opportunity for some, I am not saying you should not I am just saying it is certainly not equality of opportunity unless of course you measure it as well if anyone cocked up they would get the same extra chances. That however brings us back to the man who studies and the man who does not until after many chances.
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Racism
Dec 2, 2023 8:22:57 GMT
via mobile
Post by dappy on Dec 2, 2023 8:22:57 GMT
You seem very confused about what equality of opportunity is and about how that relates to people of different sex or sexuality or race.
I want a society where as much as possible people are judged on their merits regardless of race, sex, sexuality etc and where we try to help people who have started down the wrong path turn their lives around and lead productive lives. You don’t. That’s cool
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Racism
Dec 2, 2023 19:10:44 GMT
Post by sandypine on Dec 2, 2023 19:10:44 GMT
You seem very confused about what equality of opportunity is and about how that relates to people of different sex or sexuality or race. I want a society where as much as possible people are judged on their merits regardless of race, sex, sexuality etc and where we try to help people who have started down the wrong path turn their lives around and lead productive lives. You don’t. That’s cool What makes you think I want anything different, all I am asking is where do you draw the line as regards having equal opportunity and positive action is an example where in order to create equal opportunity for one group you have to take away opportunity for an individual of another group. So far equal opportunity is measured as per equality of outcome and that is a nonsense as we all know.
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Racism
Dec 22, 2023 14:21:30 GMT
via mobile
Post by johnofgwent on Dec 22, 2023 14:21:30 GMT
Red I have answered your question above. Could you answer mine please. Do you understand that it would be illegal for any employer to restrict JOBS to those of a certain race (regardless of which race) (except in a vanishingly small number of very very special circumstances)? if that IS the case why are there so many ppsitions only open to blacks and mulattos ?
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