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Post by sandypine on Nov 25, 2023 9:54:07 GMT
Hmm. I don't recall you condemning either of those. I condemn any and all acts of violence and lawlessness. Do you? Mandela's Church street bombing, the ANC's necklacing, the killing of suspected informers, the riots supported by Mandela the blowing up of railway lines etc etc . We put up a statue to him. Do you condemn his acts? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2023 10:18:54 GMT
It's 20 years too late, but what the hell. The people have been patient and democracy has clearly failed to represent the electorate. The people are lied to every five years and will be lied to again and again until there's nothing left worth fighting for. Just because things aren't exactly how you want them to be doesn't mean democracy has failed. Considering this wasn't what I said then I can only assume you're unable to respond to a post without posting a one-line meaningless statement. While I know it's pointless engaging with somebody like that, I will make the futile attempt to educate you.
Representative democracy - we elect MPs and parties based on this system, where they promise to do something and you vote them in to do that something. When the parties and MPs continue to lie to the people to get elected and fail miserbly then democracy, or rather, representative democracy has failed.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2023 10:27:05 GMT
It's 20 years too late, but what the hell. The people have been patient and democracy has clearly failed to represent the electorate. The people are lied to every five years and will be lied to again and again until there's nothing left worth fighting for. There is very little evidence now that we functionally live in a democracy. If a course is not approved by a certain segment of society, then there will be no option to select it or, if it is somehow selected, the course wont actually be taken. On matters that pertain to the interests of most people, we had surer freedom of association and freedom of speech 50 years ago. My own view is that a democracy can only function when the amount of internal division in a society is quite low and we no longer qualify. Then I guess our system has not only failed the people many times over, it has actively created a situation where it is now designed to fail. Treason prevailed. The EU referendum (direct democracy) was probably a shocker for the elitist mainstream establishment, which would explain why we're now witnessing even more betrayal to accelerate the process, which appears to be the total genocide of everything that once gave this country an identity.
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Post by Orac on Nov 25, 2023 11:51:13 GMT
There is very little evidence now that we functionally live in a democracy. If a course is not approved by a certain segment of society, then there will be no option to select it or, if it is somehow selected, the course wont actually be taken. On matters that pertain to the interests of most people, we had surer freedom of association and freedom of speech 50 years ago. My own view is that a democracy can only function when the amount of internal division in a society is quite low and we no longer qualify. Then I guess our system has not only failed the people many times over, it has actively created a situation where it is now designed to fail. Treason prevailed. The EU referendum (direct democracy) was probably a shocker for the elitist mainstream establishment, which would explain why we're now witnessing even more betrayal to accelerate the process, which appears to be the total genocide of everything that once gave this country an identity.
Giving the perverseness of the various contributing actions, it looks to me like democratic institutions and social forms were deliberately dismantled and dismantled regardless of cost . It's pretty ominous. |
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Post by happyhornet on Nov 25, 2023 12:00:44 GMT
I condemn any and all acts of violence and lawlessness. Do you? I haven't seen, or recalled you doing this regarding the cases I mentioned. I've condemned them on this thread. I've never heard you condemn Jack the Ripper, shall I read anything into that? |
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Post by happyhornet on Nov 25, 2023 12:02:30 GMT
Yes I've heard countless people saying on social media or even on TV or in national newspaper column that they are apparently being silenced. Perhaps I'm missing something here, but if you can tell people you're being silenced then surely by definition you aren't? The word 'silenced' can mean either you cannot speak at all, or cannot say a particular thing. If you select the latter meaning rather than the former, then the paradox goes away. What things can people not say? |
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Post by happyhornet on Nov 25, 2023 12:03:48 GMT
Yes I've heard countless people saying on social media or even on TV or in national newspaper column that they are apparently being silenced. Perhaps I'm missing something here, but if you can tell people you're being silenced then surely by definition you aren't? What about people being de-banked for holding the "wrong" political views? Has that not happened either? A private company choosing not to do business with someone isn't silencing them. |
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Post by happyhornet on Nov 25, 2023 12:07:25 GMT
Well if 48% of the electorate are told that they lost get over it, surely we can say the same to a mere 18%? When there is a binary question then it is a decision to be made as regards a direction of travel as in a referendum. A General election is a selection of those to represent the people in a constituency and as the left have frequently pointed out that is all people in the constituency. That is exactly what was said when the BNP won two EU seats. You seem to wish to have it both ways as suits which is very much a left leaning attribute. Ours is a parliamentary democracy, none of the other winning parliamentary candidates flew the flag for losing candidates, why should an exception be made for the BNP? |
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Post by happyhornet on Nov 25, 2023 12:08:18 GMT
When did we last have uncontrolled immigration? You have to recall that every manifesto was quite specific as regards what would happen as regards immigration and were all varianst of teh Tories last few years whereby 'tens of thousands' was referred to. People know what they vote for and very much know on what points they are ignored. The Tories have failed on a number of things, including their immigration targets, that doesn't mean we've had uncontrolled immigration. |
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Post by happyhornet on Nov 25, 2023 12:08:38 GMT
I condemn any and all acts of violence and lawlessness. Do you? Mandela's Church street bombing, the ANC's necklacing, the killing of suspected informers, the riots supported by Mandela the blowing up of railway lines etc etc . We put up a statue to him. Do you condemn his acts? Yes. |
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Post by Orac on Nov 25, 2023 12:56:34 GMT
The word 'silenced' can mean either you cannot speak at all, or cannot say a particular thing. If you select the latter meaning rather than the former, then the paradox goes away. What things can people not say? The law lacks specificity. As an example - Any negative reference to any group other than white people has the potential to be deemed illegal (punishable). Whether a particular statement of this nature is, or is not, illegal is not a matter coded into the logic of the law (it's a matter of discretion) |
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Post by sandypine on Nov 25, 2023 17:40:16 GMT
Mandela's Church street bombing, the ANC's necklacing, the killing of suspected informers, the riots supported by Mandela the blowing up of railway lines etc etc . We put up a statue to him. Do you condemn his acts? Yes. So we can all work to have his statue taken down or even better we can get a mob of like minded people to drag it through the streets daubing it with paint and throw it in the Serpentine. That seems to be both workable and legal. |
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 25, 2023 17:58:17 GMT
So we can all work to have his statue taken down or even better we can get a mob of like minded people to drag it through the streets daubing it with paint and throw it in the Serpentine. That seems to be both workable and legal. A mob ran through the streets of Dublin recently. I'm sure we all suppose you condemn that, but it's always nice to have confirmation. Over to you. |
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 25, 2023 18:01:07 GMT
What things can people not say? The law lacks specificity. As an example - Any negative reference to any group other than white people has the potential to be deemed illegal (punishable). Whether a particular statement of this nature is, or is not, illegal is not a matter coded into the logic of the law (it's a matter of discretion) Statutes are often vague. 'Discretion' is left to the jury. That's unavoidable. For example, any statute dealing with treason can't possibly hope to list the entire set of circumstances in which an individual's behaviour will be harmful to the state's security. Whether an act is harmful in that way will be left for the jury to decide. The 'law lacks specificity' for good reason. |
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Post by Orac on Nov 25, 2023 19:56:41 GMT
The law lacks specificity. As an example - Any negative reference to any group other than white people has the potential to be deemed illegal (punishable). Whether a particular statement of this nature is, or is not, illegal is not a matter coded into the logic of the law (it's a matter of discretion) Statutes are often vague. 'Discretion' is left to the jury. That's unavoidable. For example, any statute dealing with treason can't possibly hope to list the entire set of circumstances in which an individual's behaviour will be harmful to the state's security. Whether an act is harmful in that way will be left for the jury to decide. The 'law lacks specificity' for good reason. You seem to have misunderstood. Go back and take a look at the post i'm replying to - I was asked for a specific (specified) example. Great, billowing, potentially all encompassing law is not entirely unprecedented and I didn't say it was. It's interesting that you mention the well known, baggy 'catch all' of treason (betrayal). The laws in question are similar in nature except it isn't the nation that is betrayed and an illegal betrayal can be criticism (ie it is more a parallel to the Soviet Union's version of treason). |
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