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Post by buccaneer on Nov 25, 2023 7:24:03 GMT
If you don't or wont accept that a people in aggregate have a right to make the kind of society they want, i guess a naturalistic, traditional option is for them to bend your head up your arse and make you accept they have that right. There isn't much room for maneuver here. As a thinker once said - Between two groups of people who want to make inconsistent kinds of worlds, I see no remedy but force.Of course people have the right to campaign for the kind of society they want, I just don't believe that a minority have the right to use lawlessness and violence to demand the kind of society they want. Did you say the same when BLM were throwing statues in the river, or Pro-Palestinian/Hamas supporters were vandalising war memorials and intimidating, threatening and physically assaulting British Jews? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2023 7:40:48 GMT
Should we be more like the Irish and demonstrate our unhappiness at it all, the establishment has proved that it is incapable and unwilling to safeguard our way of life, perhaps we ought to say something. Of course. Regardless of the bizarre and relentless demonisation of our society, we actually have a right to our preferred way of life to the degree it is workable/ successful (which it was). It's not like we actually lost a war. It's 20 years too late, but what the hell. The people have been patient and democracy has clearly failed to represent the electorate. The people are lied to every five years and will be lied to again and again until there's nothing left worth fighting for. |
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Post by happyhornet on Nov 25, 2023 8:19:42 GMT
Of course people have the right to campaign for the kind of society they want, I just don't believe that a minority have the right to use lawlessness and violence to demand the kind of society they want. Did you say the same when BLM were throwing statues in the river, or Pro-Palestinian/Hamas supporters were vandalising war memorials and intimidating, threatening and physically assaulting British Jews? Yes. Do you condemn the Irish rioters as strongly as you condemn the BLM and Hamas rioters? |
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Post by happyhornet on Nov 25, 2023 8:22:05 GMT
Of course. Regardless of the bizarre and relentless demonisation of our society, we actually have a right to our preferred way of life to the degree it is workable/ successful (which it was). It's not like we actually lost a war. It's 20 years too late, but what the hell. The people have been patient and democracy has clearly failed to represent the electorate. The people are lied to every five years and will be lied to again and again until there's nothing left worth fighting for. Just because things aren't exactly how you want them to be doesn't mean democracy has failed. |
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Post by Orac on Nov 25, 2023 8:38:50 GMT
If you don't or wont accept that a people in aggregate have a right to make the kind of society they want, i guess a naturalistic, traditional option is for them to bend your head up your arse and make you accept they have that right. There isn't much room for maneuver here. As a thinker once said - Between two groups of people who want to make inconsistent kinds of worlds, I see no remedy but force.Of course people have the right to campaign for the kind of society they want, I just don't believe that a minority have the right to use lawlessness and violence to demand the kind of society they want. The post i replied to talked about 'speaking up' rather than violence. However, in the case of Ireland (or the UK) there may well be laws against that sort of thing as well. |
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Post by Orac on Nov 25, 2023 8:50:41 GMT
Of course. Regardless of the bizarre and relentless demonisation of our society, we actually have a right to our preferred way of life to the degree it is workable/ successful (which it was). It's not like we actually lost a war. It's 20 years too late, but what the hell. The people have been patient and democracy has clearly failed to represent the electorate. The people are lied to every five years and will be lied to again and again until there's nothing left worth fighting for. There is very little evidence now that we functionally live in a democracy. If a course is not approved by a certain segment of society, then there will be no option to select it or, if it is somehow selected, the course wont actually be taken. On matters that pertain to the interests of most people, we had surer freedom of association and freedom of speech 50 years ago. My own view is that a democracy can only function when the amount of internal division in a society is quite low and we no longer qualify. |
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Post by buccaneer on Nov 25, 2023 9:16:52 GMT
Did you say the same when BLM were throwing statues in the river, or Pro-Palestinian/Hamas supporters were vandalising war memorials and intimidating, threatening and physically assaulting British Jews? Yes. Do you condemn the Irish rioters as strongly as you condemn the BLM and Hamas rioters? Hmm. I don't recall you condemning either of those. |
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Post by happyhornet on Nov 25, 2023 9:31:51 GMT
Of course people have the right to campaign for the kind of society they want, I just don't believe that a minority have the right to use lawlessness and violence to demand the kind of society they want. The post i replied to talked about 'speaking up' rather than violence. However, in the case of Ireland (or the UK) there may well be laws against that sort of thing as well. Yes I've heard countless people saying on social media or even on TV or in national newspaper column that they are apparently being silenced. Perhaps I'm missing something here, but if you can tell people you're being silenced then surely by definition you aren't? |
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Post by happyhornet on Nov 25, 2023 9:33:46 GMT
Yes. Do you condemn the Irish rioters as strongly as you condemn the BLM and Hamas rioters? Hmm. I don't recall you condemning either of those. I condemn any and all acts of violence and lawlessness. Do you? |
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Post by Orac on Nov 25, 2023 9:38:35 GMT
The post i replied to talked about 'speaking up' rather than violence. However, in the case of Ireland (or the UK) there may well be laws against that sort of thing as well. Yes I've heard countless people saying on social media or even on TV or in national newspaper column that they are apparently being silenced. Perhaps I'm missing something here, but if you can tell people you're being silenced then surely by definition you aren't? The word 'silenced' can mean either you cannot speak at all, or cannot say a particular thing. If you select the latter meaning rather than the former, then the paradox goes away. |
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Post by sandypine on Nov 25, 2023 9:42:28 GMT
Indeed it is but it was as regards reference do you take responsibility for what your ethnic compatriots do. No but it is still demanded that we do an that comes from many on the left. I've made no such demands of anyone. Would you agree that it is therefore unfair to hold ethnic minorities collectively responsible for the actions of a small number of other ethnic minorities? However many of your fellow travellers on the left have as do many of those to whom invitations were made to come and live here. It is wrong but it is always wrong, not sometimes right as the left in general expect. |
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Post by buccaneer on Nov 25, 2023 9:43:46 GMT
Hmm. I don't recall you condemning either of those. I condemn any and all acts of violence and lawlessness. Do you? I haven't seen, or recalled you doing this regarding the cases I mentioned. |
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Post by buccaneer on Nov 25, 2023 9:46:05 GMT
The post i replied to talked about 'speaking up' rather than violence. However, in the case of Ireland (or the UK) there may well be laws against that sort of thing as well. Yes I've heard countless people saying on social media or even on TV or in national newspaper column that they are apparently being silenced. Perhaps I'm missing something here, but if you can tell people you're being silenced then surely by definition you aren't? What about people being de-banked for holding the "wrong" political views? Has that not happened either? |
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Post by sandypine on Nov 25, 2023 9:46:54 GMT
As regards your edit. In Barking and Dagenham in 2010 or thereabouts Nick Griffin of the BNP got 16% of the vote. Now he lost out by a good chalk to Labour but the question is does the Labour MP have to consider the views of that 16% or can she totally ignore them as being of no consequence and work only for those who were her voters. Well if 48% of the electorate are told that they lost get over it, surely we can say the same to a mere 18%? When there is a binary question then it is a decision to be made as regards a direction of travel as in a referendum. A General election is a selection of those to represent the people in a constituency and as the left have frequently pointed out that is all people in the constituency. That is exactly what was said when the BNP won two EU seats. You seem to wish to have it both ways as suits which is very much a left leaning attribute. |
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Post by sandypine on Nov 25, 2023 9:49:27 GMT
when was the last time we had controlled immigration.. When did we last have uncontrolled immigration? You have to recall that every manifesto was quite specific as regards what would happen as regards immigration and were all varianst of teh Tories last few years whereby 'tens of thousands' was referred to. People know what they vote for and very much know on what points they are ignored. |
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