Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2022 15:52:56 GMT
Brexit is fucking brilliant. We're a democracy, our votes matter and project fear was bullshit. We always were. They always did. We will see. |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 16, 2022 18:30:44 GMT
For many years we had no say over how we are governed. Now, we have more say.
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 16, 2022 19:13:48 GMT
For many years we had no say over how we are governed. Now, we have more say. Trade barriers are a barrier to wealth. The biggest trade barrier is the different laws and standards across the different member states. It's necessary for the member states to give up a certain amount of 'say' so that inconsistent laws across the member states can be removed and replaced with harmonised laws. The 27 member states are going to continue to harmonise their laws, and they will become wealthier as a result. They will have to sacrifice a certain amount of sovereignty to make that possible, but the economic rewards make it worthwhile. The UK will retain it's own 'irregular' laws, and, as a result, it will be more difficult for the rest of Europe to trade with it. So, the UK will retain sovereignty over unimportant issues like trademark and copyright law, weights and measures, etc., and it will be poorer as a result. But, somehow, I don't think you were overly concerned about the EU making standardised laws for trademarks, etc. The real problem was freedom of movement. We all know that. |
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Post by bancroft on Nov 16, 2022 20:40:47 GMT
It seems to work for a large majority of EU countries. Greece has benefitted from the Euro and likewise, most countries would be bankrupt if they reverted back to their own currencies which would be worth very little in global trading. The Euro has the confidence of huge financial institutions and countries can rely on that if they need to. And imagine if each country had its own currency while manufacturing and trading across multiple borders. The cost and profit sums would be impossible to calculate as currency rates change between each other. And in which currency would a country export? A rising tide lifts all boats. The Euro is stable and respected. It represents one of the top three global economies in the world. I doubt any national European currency can do better. I don't think you can tell, the Target II debt is massive showing that all the money is being funnelled towards northern Europe at the expense of Southern Europe. It is just no-one has asked to settle the bill. Greece cannot issue bonds to the private market as no-one wants them so the ECB buys them up. Most of the EU is small countries and getting paid by the EU. There is lots of tension over the open borders migration policy and sovereignty issues. Then there is the new green issue that has harmed Dutch farmers and I think the Dutch govt is going full big brother to stop talk of following the UK out of the EU. I wonder how the Irish will react if they are told to close farms? |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 16, 2022 22:12:03 GMT
Trade barriers are a barrier to wealth. The biggest trade barrier is the different laws and standards across the different member states. Dont be daft - the biggest trade barrier is access for goods and services. Anyone can make a widget to different standards, it's the ability to supply and sell it without interference that is the problem. You are being daft again.. |
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 16, 2022 22:25:08 GMT
Trade barriers are a barrier to wealth. The biggest trade barrier is the different laws and standards across the different member states. Anyone can make a widget to different standards, it's the ability to supply and sell it without interference that is the problem. Well, that's precisely the problem the EU set out to fix, Doc. Instead of making widgets to 27 standards, a manufacturer has to make it only to one. How do you think Nissan would feel about making the same model car to 27 different safety standards? Do you think they'd bother? What about purchasers of products from abroad? Do you think they would bother to check with a lawyer whether the goods produced in Italy are manufactured to the standards required in Germany? I doubt it. But if it's one standard throughout the EU, you can be sure it is to the same standard. That leads to more trade. The problem is that you and Nigel didn't like the idea of the EU making one standard for all. That meant they would be imposing on the UK's sovereignty. Well, you got what you wanted. Let's see how that works out for you. Oh, I forgot. We can't, because you've banned people from posting up the list of the damage it's done. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 16, 2022 22:29:44 GMT
Anyone can make a widget to different standards, it's the ability to supply and sell it without interference that is the problem. Well, that's precisely the problem the EU set out to fix, Doc. Instead of making widgets to 27 standards, a manufacturer has only to make it one. How do you think Nissan would feel about making the same model car to 27 different safety standards? Do you think they'd bother? If making widgets to different standards was a barrier to trade then China would not be the manufacturing centre of the world - you are being daft. Do you really think the Chinese decide to build a car to meet the differing standards in over 27 countries around the globe because its not worthwhile?  |
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 16, 2022 22:34:39 GMT
Well, that's precisely the problem the EU set out to fix, Doc. Instead of making widgets to 27 standards, a manufacturer has only to make it one. How do you think Nissan would feel about making the same model car to 27 different safety standards? Do you think they'd bother? If making widgets to different standards was a barrier to trade then China would not be the manufacturing centre of the world - you are being daft. Do you really think the Chinese decide to build a car to meet the differing standards in over 27 countries around the globe because its not worthwhile? Different countries have different attitudes to all sorts of things, and those attitudes transfer to their rules re product standards. That's just common sense. If the rules about trademarks aren't the same in all 27 member states, that means a trader has to investigate the law in 27 different countries. That's a lot of lawyers' fees. It's a massive barrier to trade. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 16, 2022 22:38:52 GMT
If making widgets to different standards was a barrier to trade then China would not be the manufacturing centre of the world - you are being daft. Do you really think the Chinese decide to build a car to meet the differing standards in over 27 countries around the globe because its not worthwhile? Different countries have different attitudes to all sorts of things, and those attitudes transfer to their rules re product standards. That's just common sense. If the rules about trademarks aren't the same in all 27 member states, that means a trader has to investigate the law in 27 different countries. That's a lot of lawyers' fees. It's a massive barrier to trade.So why is China the worlds leading manufacturer? What single markets does China belong to? |
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 16, 2022 22:44:05 GMT
Different countries have different attitudes to all sorts of things, and those attitudes transfer to their rules re product standards. That's just common sense. If the rules about trademarks aren't the same in all 27 member states, that means a trader has to investigate the law in 27 different countries. That's a lot of lawyers' fees. It's a massive barrier to trade.So why is China the worlds leading manufacturer? What single markets does China belong to? Because China is a low-cost manufacturer, I suppose. They sell junk at low prices. You do understand the simple logic of having one standard for all, don't you? How can a small to medium size business selling, say, wine in France, afford to investigate the laws surrounding selling, labelling, etc., in 27 different countries? It just wouldn't be feasible. If there are 27 different standards, that company will be restricted to sales in France or maybe another couple of countries. It's unlikely to be able to afford the legal fees involved in investigating 27 different markets. But standardise those rules across Europe, and suddenly a massive market opens up to that company. You and Nigel don't like that idea, though, do you? That means giving up 'sovereignty', having a standard law imposed from outside Parliament. Let's see how well your ideas about sovereignty age. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 16, 2022 22:51:32 GMT
So why is China the worlds leading manufacturer? What single markets does China belong to? Because China is a low-cost manufacturer, I suppose. They sell junk at low prices. You do understand the simple logic of having one standard for all, don't you? How can a small to medium size business selling, say, wine in France, afford to investigate the laws surrounding selling, labelling, etc., in 27 different countries? It just wouldn't be feasible. If there are 27 different standards, that company will be restricted to sales in France or maybe another couple of countries. It's unlikely to be able to afford the legal fees involved in investigating 27 different markets. But standardise those rules across Europe, and suddenly a massive market opens up to that company. China is the worlds largest producer of cars. They export these cars to every corner of the globe - yet, strangely enough, they share their domestic standards with hardly any of them. Meanwhile in the EU - with their harmonised standards - car production has not grown in over 3 decades.. Are you sure that harmonised standards are the solution? |
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 16, 2022 22:53:39 GMT
Because China is a low-cost manufacturer, I suppose. They sell junk at low prices. You do understand the simple logic of having one standard for all, don't you? How can a small to medium size business selling, say, wine in France, afford to investigate the laws surrounding selling, labelling, etc., in 27 different countries? It just wouldn't be feasible. If there are 27 different standards, that company will be restricted to sales in France or maybe another couple of countries. It's unlikely to be able to afford the legal fees involved in investigating 27 different markets. But standardise those rules across Europe, and suddenly a massive market opens up to that company. China is the worlds largest producer of cars. They export these cars to every corner of the globe - yet, strangely enough, they share their domestic standards with hardly any of them. Meanwhile in the EU - with their harmonised standards - car production has not grown in over 3 decades.. Are you sure that harmonised standards are the solution? Yes. I can show you results of failing to harmonise, if you like. Just say the word, and I'll post 5 or 600 hundred examples of the cost of deviating from a standard. |
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 16, 2022 22:57:35 GMT
Because China is a low-cost manufacturer, I suppose. They sell junk at low prices. You do understand the simple logic of having one standard for all, don't you? How can a small to medium size business selling, say, wine in France, afford to investigate the laws surrounding selling, labelling, etc., in 27 different countries? It just wouldn't be feasible. If there are 27 different standards, that company will be restricted to sales in France or maybe another couple of countries. It's unlikely to be able to afford the legal fees involved in investigating 27 different markets. But standardise those rules across Europe, and suddenly a massive market opens up to that company. China is the worlds largest producer of cars. They export these cars to every corner of the globe - yet, strangely enough, they share their domestic standards with hardly any of them. I'm pretty sure China's success comes from it being a low-cost producer, Doc. Don't you have any more realistic comparators? A small to medium-sized wine producer in France is not the same as a large Chinese car manufacturer, either. |
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Post by Steve on Nov 16, 2022 22:59:04 GMT
For many years we had no say over how we are governed. Now, we have more say.  Look Vinny you're an intelligent person and you know that's complete fiction so why do you post it? |
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Post by oracle75 on Nov 16, 2022 23:01:30 GMT
It seems to work for a large majority of EU countries. Greece has benefitted from the Euro and likewise, most countries would be bankrupt if they reverted back to their own currencies which would be worth very little in global trading. The Euro has the confidence of huge financial institutions and countries can rely on that if they need to. And imagine if each country had its own currency while manufacturing and trading across multiple borders. The cost and profit sums would be impossible to calculate as currency rates change between each other. And in which currency would a country export? A rising tide lifts all boats. The Euro is stable and respected. It represents one of the top three global economies in the world. I doubt any national European currency can do better. I don't think you can tell, the Target II debt is massive showing that all the money is being funnelled towards northern Europe at the expense of Southern Europe. It is just no-one has asked to settle the bill. Greece cannot issue bonds to the private market as no-one wants them so the ECB buys them up. Most of the EU is small countries and getting paid by the EU. There is lots of tension over the open borders migration policy and sovereignty issues. Then there is the new green issue that has harmed Dutch farmers and I think the Dutch govt is going full big brother to stop talk of following the UK out of the EU. I wonder how the Irish will react if they are told to close farms? My post was about the value of the Euro as a single currency. I don't have enough hours in the day to discuss the migration issues of 27 countries, nor their issues with sovereignty, very much a UK issue nor Irish farming. I stand by what I wrote, and which you really didn't address. A single market works most effectively if goods which pass through various countries borh as trade and as stages of production all use the same currency. And any country reverting to their own would invite a huge drop in its value and crippling inflation as well as loss of credibility when they want to borrow so risking very high interest rates. There is nothing in EU "philosophy" that expects all countries to reach an equal level of wealth. EU nations are free to formulate growth, investment and productivity as they see fit. But they benefit from free trade across 27 countries plus others outside the single market/ customs Union, negotiated on their behalf and subject to their approval. |
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