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Post by Orac on Nov 9, 2023 17:43:25 GMT
If Islamophobia is a thing then do is rightwingphobia . An irrational fear of conservative politics by lefties brainwashed by wokeism. Indeed. We should have Rightwingophobia awareness month and the government should issue pamphlets and warnings. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 10, 2023 9:28:57 GMT
So it's meaningless. Islamism was heavily influenced by Nazism, which is why hatred toward Jews comes as part of the package. BLM adopted it. No word is meaningless if means something — in the cases of Islamophobia and anti-Semitism it's a description of fear and hatred of religions (and peoples who practice them) by both those who perpetrate them and are recipients of them...
Anti-semitism is discrimination against Jewish people - not against their religion . It's racism.Islamophobia was a fear/hatred of islam - not against the people who practise islam - which is NOT racism. What's changed over the years is that Islamophobia has subtly begun to include also the meaning of discrimination against muslims - which was never in the original meaning of the word. And, as I've said, the APPG definition (accepted by most political parties except the Tories) now defines the word as meaning an attack on "muslimness" - whatever that means. So it's begun to mean racism (which is illegal). But it was originally used to mean a dislike of islam. So the problem is obvious. Accusations of islamophobia can be levelled at people who are critical of the many aspects of islam that are inimical to modern Britain, for example, like hatred of homosexuals or discrimination against women. These criticisms are islamophobic but they are perfectly legal - and indeed rational. It's a subtle way of sowing confusion in the minds of people to make them think that it's illegal to criticise islam when it's not. If some politician called islam a death cult and denied that it was a proper religion there would be a huge outcry to have him/her sacked. But people are perfectly entitled to have that opinion. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 10, 2023 10:03:34 GMT
Hmmm...
"The Muslim Council of Britain" an organisation so discredited that even the woke Home Office has an official policy of non-engagement with them.
Does anyone remember their "Tell Momma" website for reporting "Islamophobic" incidents? It turned out that it was making up such reports on mass.
So pardon me if I don't take their word for anything.
But isn't it better to know what "their word" is, if only to seek out the info to discount/disprove it...? Nope, couldn't care less. |
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Post by patman post on Nov 10, 2023 15:40:39 GMT
But isn't it better to know what "their word" is, if only to seek out the info to discount/disprove it...? Nope, couldn't care less. That's obviously not true when you cite "remember their "Tell Momma" website for reporting "Islamophobic" incidents? It turned out that it was making up such reports on mass" as a reason for whatever... |
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Post by patman post on Nov 10, 2023 16:06:32 GMT
No word is meaningless if means something — in the cases of Islamophobia and anti-Semitism it's a description of fear and hatred of religions (and peoples who practice them) by both those who perpetrate them and are recipients of them...
Anti-semitism is discrimination against Jewish people - not against their religion . It's racism.Islamophobia was a fear/hatred of islam - not against the people who practise islam - which is NOT racism. What's changed over the years is that Islamophobia has subtly begun to include also the meaning of discrimination against muslims - which was never in the original meaning of the word. And, as I've said, the APPG definition (accepted by most political parties except the Tories) now defines the word as meaning an attack on "muslimness" - whatever that means. So it's begun to mean racism (which is illegal). But it was originally used to mean a dislike of islam. So the problem is obvious. Accusations of islamophobia can be levelled at people who are critical of the many aspects of islam that are inimical to modern Britain, for example, like hatred of homosexuals or discrimination against women. These criticisms are islamophobic but they are perfectly legal - and indeed rational. It's a subtle way of sowing confusion in the minds of people to make them think that it's illegal to criticise islam when it's not. If some politician called islam a death cult and denied that it was a proper religion there would be a huge outcry to have him/her sacked. But people are perfectly entitled to have that opinion. Words can change, their meanings can alter, and they can also derive from ignorance or misunderstanding.
Semite and Semitic used to refer to people who spoke one of the Semitic languages, a family of languages spoken in parts of Asia and Africa and came to include Arabs, Akkadians, Canaanites, Hebrews, etc, etc, etc.
But the words now commonly refer only to Jews. Thus, anti-Semitism is taken to mean anti Jew.
Islamophobia is a more recently coined word and, just as Jew has become thought of as of one religion, Muslims are all commonly classed as Islamic. Hence, Islamophobia — meaning anti-Muslim, particularly those who are non-White.
Just because the words may be formed from mistakes and misunderstandings, it doesn’t mean that their meanings are not perfectly clear, both to those who use them and those who suffer from them...
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Post by Orac on Nov 10, 2023 16:13:49 GMT
Anti-semitism is discrimination against Jewish people - not against their religion . It's racism.Islamophobia was a fear/hatred of islam - not against the people who practise islam - which is NOT racism. What's changed over the years is that Islamophobia has subtly begun to include also the meaning of discrimination against muslims - which was never in the original meaning of the word. And, as I've said, the APPG definition (accepted by most political parties except the Tories) now defines the word as meaning an attack on "muslimness" - whatever that means. So it's begun to mean racism (which is illegal). But it was originally used to mean a dislike of islam. So the problem is obvious. Accusations of islamophobia can be levelled at people who are critical of the many aspects of islam that are inimical to modern Britain, for example, like hatred of homosexuals or discrimination against women. These criticisms are islamophobic but they are perfectly legal - and indeed rational. It's a subtle way of sowing confusion in the minds of people to make them think that it's illegal to criticise islam when it's not. If some politician called islam a death cult and denied that it was a proper religion there would be a huge outcry to have him/her sacked. But people are perfectly entitled to have that opinion. Words can change, their meanings can alter, and they can also derive from ignorance or misunderstanding.
Semite and Semitic used to refer to people who spoke one of the Semitic languages, a family of languages spoken in parts of Asia and Africa and came to include Arabs, Akkadians, Canaanites, Hebrews, etc, etc, etc.
But the words now commonly refer only to Jews. Thus, anti-Semitism is taken to mean anti Jew.
Islamophobia is a more recently coined word and, just as Jew has become thought of as of one religion, Muslims are all commonly classed as Islamic. Hence, Islamophobia — meaning anti-Muslim, particularly those who are non-White.
Just because the words may be formed from mistakes and misunderstandings, their meanings are perfectly clear, both to those who use them and those who suffer from them...
The difference is that one creates a substantial (important) lie about the quality of the position described and the other doesn't and one is a recent, and deliberate, invention and the other has a longer history. The uncontroversial term anti-islamic was available, but was not used. There is a reason for that. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2023 7:37:22 GMT
Words can change, their meanings can alter, and they can also derive from ignorance or misunderstanding.
Semite and Semitic used to refer to people who spoke one of the Semitic languages, a family of languages spoken in parts of Asia and Africa and came to include Arabs, Akkadians, Canaanites, Hebrews, etc, etc, etc.
But the words now commonly refer only to Jews. Thus, anti-Semitism is taken to mean anti Jew.
Islamophobia is a more recently coined word and, just as Jew has become thought of as of one religion, Muslims are all commonly classed as Islamic. Hence, Islamophobia — meaning anti-Muslim, particularly those who are non-White.
Just because the words may be formed from mistakes and misunderstandings, their meanings are perfectly clear, both to those who use them and those who suffer from them...
The difference is that one creates a substantial (important) lie about the quality of the position described and the other doesn't and one is a recent, and deliberate, invention and the other has a longer history. The uncontroversial term anti-islamic was available, but was not used. There is a reason for that. I tend to agree. Anti-Islamist is another one. The Left and the Islamists rely on dictatorship methodology which is in total contradiction to the human rights the Left claim to believe in, when it suits them. The idea, which the Left repetitively push, where it's a psychological disorder to challenge them cannot be ignored and must be defeated with extreme prejudice.
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 11, 2023 9:12:59 GMT
The thing is that, in our law, it's legal to attack a religion (or ideology) but NOT legal to attack those who practise that religion (or ideology). So I think, that being the case, it's important that words should differentiate between whether it's the ideology that's being attacked or the person practising it.
So the word anti-semitic has a clear meaning of hating Jews - which is why it's racism and therefore illegal. Everyone understands this. But the word islamophobe certainly originated as a fear/dislike of islam - that's what it is in my old dictionary. But over the years its meaning seems to have been blurred so that it could also mean prejudice against muslims. And the APPG definition has been changed such that it only refers to hatred of muslims (which is illegal). But the APPG definition is not widely accepted
Yet most of the cases of islamophobia that Baroness Warsi charged the Tories with were actually criticisms of islam - and were therefore legal. IMO the word is now meaningless because no one can agree its meaning - and it should therefore not be used.
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Post by patman post on Nov 11, 2023 15:52:03 GMT
The thing is that, in our law, it's legal to attack a religion (or ideology) but NOT legal to attack those who practise that religion (or ideology). So I think, that being the case, it's important that words should differentiate between whether it's the ideology that's being attacked or the person practising it. So the word anti-semitic has a clear meaning of hating Jews - which is why it's racism and therefore illegal. Everyone understands this. But the word islamophobe certainly originated as a fear/dislike of islam - that's what it is in my old dictionary. But over the years its meaning seems to have been blurred so that it could also mean prejudice against muslims. And the APPG definition has been changed such that it only refers to hatred of muslims (which is illegal). But the APPG definition is not widely accepted Yet most of the cases of islamophobia that Baroness Warsi charged the Tories with were actually criticisms of islam - and were therefore legal. IMO the word is now meaningless because no one can agree its meaning - and it should therefore not be used. So you want to censor the use of a word because you won't accept what it currently means to the majority of people who use it and/or are victims of it?
Seems to me (as one who is against violence from both Israelis and Palestinians, and who also has sympathy for the innocents on both sides) that sidetracking the discussion into the etymology of words is just another way to attack those you dislike...
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 12, 2023 12:29:40 GMT
The thing is that, in our law, it's legal to attack a religion (or ideology) but NOT legal to attack those who practise that religion (or ideology). So I think, that being the case, it's important that words should differentiate between whether it's the ideology that's being attacked or the person practising it. So the word anti-semitic has a clear meaning of hating Jews - which is why it's racism and therefore illegal. Everyone understands this. But the word islamophobe certainly originated as a fear/dislike of islam - that's what it is in my old dictionary. But over the years its meaning seems to have been blurred so that it could also mean prejudice against muslims. And the APPG definition has been changed such that it only refers to hatred of muslims (which is illegal). But the APPG definition is not widely accepted Yet most of the cases of islamophobia that Baroness Warsi charged the Tories with were actually criticisms of islam - and were therefore legal. IMO the word is now meaningless because no one can agree its meaning - and it should therefore not be used. So you want to censor the use of a word because you won't accept what it currently means to the majority of people who use it and/or are victims of it?
Seems to me (as one who is against violence from both Israelis and Palestinians, and who also has sympathy for the innocents on both sides) that sidetracking the discussion into the etymology of words is just another way to attack those you dislike...
It seems to me that the Left wing and muslims have tried to redefine a word to mean something that it never used to mean. So the word has now become meaningless. But regardless of that, as I said, you need to answer the question as to whether you think "islamophobia" should be a crime. As I also said most of the accusations of islamophobia are about the "religion" of islam - not about hatred of muslims. If you think that islam is OK. Patman Post maybe you'd like to explain how homophobia, misogyny, and hatred of those who aren't muslims is compatible with British culture? The floor's yours. I've asked the question of many people who support the muslims by none have even bothered to try to answer. There is no answer. llo |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 12, 2023 12:43:46 GMT
So you want to censor the use of a word because you won't accept what it currently means to the majority of people who use it and/or are victims of it? [/div]
Seems to me (as one who is against violence from both Israelis and Palestinians, and who also has sympathy for the innocents on both sides) that sidetracking the discussion into the etymology of words is just another way to attack those you dislike...
[/quote] The irony. Controlling the language is a standard left wing method of controlling, or attempting to control, the narrative. As you just tried and failed to do. Fortunately, most people can see that "Islamophobia" is a nonsense used to smear those who question that narrative. |
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Post by patman post on Nov 12, 2023 14:08:53 GMT
So you want to censor the use of a word because you won't accept what it currently means to the majority of people who use it and/or are victims of it?
Seems to me (as one who is against violence from both Israelis and Palestinians, and who also has sympathy for the innocents on both sides) that sidetracking the discussion into the etymology of words is just another way to attack those you dislike...
It seems to me that the Left wing and muslims have tried to redefine a word to mean something that it never used to mean. So the word has now become meaningless. But regardless of that, as I said, you need to answer the question as to whether you think "islamophobia" should be a crime. As I also said most of the accusations of islamophobia are about the "religion" of islam - not about hatred of muslims. If you think that islam is OK. Patman Post maybe you'd like to explain how homophobia, misogyny, and hatred of those who aren't muslims is compatible with British culture? The floor's yours. I've asked the question of many people who support the muslims by none have even bothered to try to answer. There is no answer. llo If it's "the Left wing and muslims [that] have tried to redefine a word to mean something that it never used to mean", how come Islamophobia is recognised by national and international bodies (eg, the UN**) as a word with effects and actions?
In the UK, the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) recognises, homophobic, biphobic and transphobic hate crime. For Islamophobia it also notes that case law has “concluded that persons associated by their religious beliefs may also be part of a racial group”, and that prosecutors should “consider on the facts of each case if the aggravating feature arises from hostility towards a religious belief or a racial group (or a combination of both)”.
I support everyone's right to have religious (and political) beliefs, and beliefs that oppose the religious and political beliefs of others.
They lose my support when I consider actions they take because of their beliefs are dangerous or harmful to others and, I guess, themselves...
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 13, 2023 9:15:50 GMT
Since when has it been the job of the UN to redefine words?
And the CPS guidance isn't redefining islamophobia. It's just saying that people should not be attacked for their religious beliefs - only their actions. This is indeed what the law is, although it's pretty strange IMO. It's basically saying that people can believe what they like (if it's a religion) - even if the beliefs of that religion run contrary to the laws of the land. So Islam says that homosexuals should be thrown off a tall building and then stoned if they're not dead until they are dead. It's apparently perfectly OK to believe that provided that you don't put it into practice.
This goes along with the idea that you can't be prosecuted for a "thought crime". There's some logic in this. But it breaks down when the beliefs are not "religious". For example the National Action group is proscribed because it's regarded by the govt as an organisation that believes in "white supremacy". And members of NA are locked up for simply being a member of NA. They don't have to have done anything at all. Yet islam is plainly a religion that believes in "islamic supremacy" - others are called infidels and in many parts of the Koran there are calls to kill them. Yet that's legal.
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