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Post by Pacifico on Feb 7, 2024 7:22:16 GMT
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Post by steppenwolf on Feb 7, 2024 7:59:36 GMT
It's called V2G BvL and even the govt thought of that many years ago. I'm not sure everyone will like their car batteries being used to fill in for energy shortfalls of the grid but even if they did it will require massive updating of the Grid. And the problem with renewables is "Intermittency" as many people have said. But I don't know quite how often this problem has to be pointed out before the greens understand it. It CANNOT be relied on. And the other problem is that the cost of storing electricity in batteries is absolutely huge. To give you some small idea of how useless battery storage is, I have a small 4k solar array on my double garage. On an average summer day this will generate about 20kWh of energy - which isn't very much. But the cost of storing this small amount of energy is at least £10k. And it's bulky and heavy. The other problem, when you get into providing large backup for big charging stations is that you need a lot of room and you need cooling facilities. You can't just set up rows of batteries without plenty of ventilation and you need to get approval for this kind of thing because when they go up in flames they can't be put out and the toxic fumes are highly dangerous - so you need to be away from built up areas. None of this has been thought through. Yet if we adopted HFC it could be rolled out on the model of LPG which is used in many European countries. You could just convert petrol pumps over to hhdrogen as/and/when the number of HFC cars increased. There's no environmental damage (because of toxic rare metals) and no recycling problems. They're light and efficient and can be filled up in the same time as a petrol car. Also the hydrogen also serves as convenient and cheap way to store captured renewable energy. This is the way that Toyota thought it should be done - but the politicians knew better.. There is a huge amount of research going into batteries right now and one of the problems they are trying to solve is to make batteries last longer. You seem to think science will stop dead in its tracks. Maybe so in baby Britain, but you should keep up with R and D over in the Far East. They know what they are doing and are highly competent. My view is they will at some point lick the problem. There are now solar cells in development which they believe will last over 100 years. It's all about complicated chemistry. The intermittency problem can be reduced in millions of ways, many of which involve using less energy in the first place. The ideas keep coming. I believe no one solution will fix it, but rather it will be the combination of many. Britain punches far above its weight when it comes to innovation, BvL - and a lot of the tech that China have got was nicked from us. You should show more respect for Britain. Before we got inundated with scum from the east we were truly a great country. As for "licking the problem", I've already pointed out that there are some inherent problems with the whole idea of electric/battery practicality when it comes to domestic transport. I remember Dyson spent vast amounts on developing his own BEV before pulling out. He was suckered in by the promise that better battery technology was "just round the corner", in particular solid state batteries. Well it's still just round the corner many years later (much like fusion energy) and batteries are still so expensive to make that, as Dyson said, their cost alone makes it impossible to make a profit on marketing BEVs. The thing is that most BEV manufacturers are being heavily subsidised by governments - especially for battery manufacture. But there will come a time when BEVs have to be a viable product without subsidy and without relying on a govt ban on selling new ICE cars. Let me know when that happens - which it never will. There are just too many intractable problems to solve and too much incredibly expensive infrastructure to build. Remember diesel cars were basically kyboshed by the simple matter of NOx - which we already have a solution for! BEVs have a long list of problems which we do NOT have a solution for. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Feb 7, 2024 8:37:13 GMT
I know that they claim to have that sort of range but what is the real world range? For example Tesla Model 3 Long Range claims to be good for 337 miles - however the real world range is just 250 miles - hence TResla are now the subject of a class action Lawsuit in the US for lying about the range of their vehicles. And this is before we get to bad weather when the range falls rapidly even more.. Yes. Also electric cars lose a lot of efficiency when driven fast (e.g. down the motorway). It's because they (usually) have no gearbox and driving at 70 mph gives much less mileage than driving at 50 mph because of the high rpm. In the case of my Porsche it does 70mph with the engine barely at tick-over and it still does 45mpg at 70mph. But anyone who buys say a BMW BEV with an advertised range of say 300 miles and drives it down the motorway at 70mph will get a shock because it'll do less than 200miles. And the thing about temperature is also very important. Batteries are a chemical reaction and chemical reactions are highly affected by temperature - a reaction speed doubles for every 10C rise in temperature (as a rough rule of thumb). At very low temperatures the reaction basically stops and your car won't go (as they found out this year in the USA). When the temperature increases to normal the battery will return to normal (with no loss of range). However if the temperature is low, but not so low that the battery is unusable, the battery loses a large amount of range because the internal resistance of the battery increases. So big reductions in range occur. The other thing is the car heater. Heating a car takes a surprising amount of energy. This energy is "free" in an ICE car because heat is a (largely unwanted) byproduct of running an ICE. But in a BEV you have to use the battery to heat the car, so this can have big effects on range. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 7, 2024 13:52:36 GMT
There is a huge amount of research going into batteries right now and one of the problems they are trying to solve is to make batteries last longer. You seem to think science will stop dead in its tracks. Maybe so in baby Britain, but you should keep up with R and D over in the Far East. They know what they are doing and are highly competent. My view is they will at some point lick the problem. There are now solar cells in development which they believe will last over 100 years. It's all about complicated chemistry. The intermittency problem can be reduced in millions of ways, many of which involve using less energy in the first place. The ideas keep coming. I believe no one solution will fix it, but rather it will be the combination of many. Britain punches far above its weight when it comes to innovation, BvL - and a lot of the tech that China have got was nicked from us. You should show more respect for Britain. Before we got inundated with individuals from the east we were truly a great country. As for "licking the problem", I've already pointed out that there are some inherent problems with the whole idea of electric/battery practicality when it comes to domestic transport. I remember Dyson spent vast amounts on developing his own BEV before pulling out. He was suckered in by the promise that better battery technology was "just round the corner", in particular solid state batteries. Well it's still just round the corner many years later (much like fusion energy) and batteries are still so expensive to make that, as Dyson said, their cost alone makes it impossible to make a profit on marketing BEVs. The thing is that most BEV manufacturers are being heavily subsidised by governments - especially for battery manufacture. But there will come a time when BEVs have to be a viable product without subsidy and without relying on a govt ban on selling new ICE cars. Let me know when that happens - which it never will. There are just too many intractable problems to solve and too much incredibly expensive infrastructure to build. Remember diesel cars were basically kyboshed by the simple matter of NOx - which we already have a solution for! BEVs have a long list of problems which we do NOT have a solution for. It's baby talk from Britain. You would convince me more if you gave examples of battery technology which was "nicked from us". I don't need more of the Britain is great shit. I read the science and rarely see a contribution from Britain.
Here, just to demonstrate, lets look on Google Scholar and see who is working on sodium batteries, which I picked since it is an active area of research. Spot the British-sounding names.
Regarding Dyson, well you should have a think about how that works. He's like JCB man. He has political connections and when it came to ventilators both he and the JCB man were the ones involved. It was working on the same basis as Michelle Mone made her £60m from lifting one of her fingers. The man is an artist and studied at the Royal college of Art. We call these people bullshit artists.
Regarding government subsidy, yes this is how it works. You might like to study the history of Airbus and how much government money went into that. It's got to the point now where I would call it a success. It's big enough to successfully compete agaisnt Boeing. Of course Britain sold its share.
Too many problems to solve sounds like baby Britain can't cope, well what a surprise. Lets blame the Chinese.
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Post by jonksy on Feb 7, 2024 17:44:13 GMT
British drivers furious as new 'tax' will charge them £70 to stop outside their own homes....
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Post by jonksy on Feb 7, 2024 17:49:17 GMT
Is the public's love affair with electric cars over? As House of Lords committee blames a comedian for green motor sales stall, charging points across the UK lie empty..
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Post by steppenwolf on Feb 8, 2024 7:30:16 GMT
Britain punches far above its weight when it comes to innovation, BvL - and a lot of the tech that China have got was nicked from us. You should show more respect for Britain. Before we got inundated with individuals from the east we were truly a great country. As for "licking the problem", I've already pointed out that there are some inherent problems with the whole idea of electric/battery practicality when it comes to domestic transport. I remember Dyson spent vast amounts on developing his own BEV before pulling out. He was suckered in by the promise that better battery technology was "just round the corner", in particular solid state batteries. Well it's still just round the corner many years later (much like fusion energy) and batteries are still so expensive to make that, as Dyson said, their cost alone makes it impossible to make a profit on marketing BEVs. The thing is that most BEV manufacturers are being heavily subsidised by governments - especially for battery manufacture. But there will come a time when BEVs have to be a viable product without subsidy and without relying on a govt ban on selling new ICE cars. Let me know when that happens - which it never will. There are just too many intractable problems to solve and too much incredibly expensive infrastructure to build. Remember diesel cars were basically kyboshed by the simple matter of NOx - which we already have a solution for! BEVs have a long list of problems which we do NOT have a solution for. It's baby talk from Britain. You would convince me more if you gave examples of battery technology which was "nicked from us". I don't need more of the Britain is great shit. I read the science and rarely see a contribution from Britain.
I was talking in general about scientific discoveries - not just battery development. The Chinese will need to do a bit more than develop the Li-ion battery to get BEV technology to compete with ICE. For example how many Chinese have won the Nobel prize in science? None. Then think of all the really great discoveries that have been made by the British - Newton, Bohr, Rutherford, etc etc. In fact we're second only to the USA. I can see you've never studied science BvL or you would be aware of the immense contributions we've made to science. If it had been left to the Chinese we'd still be wondering what makes up the atom. |
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Post by Pacifico on Feb 8, 2024 11:53:20 GMT
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 8, 2024 13:06:41 GMT
It's baby talk from Britain. You would convince me more if you gave examples of battery technology which was "nicked from us". I don't need more of the Britain is great shit. I read the science and rarely see a contribution from Britain.
I was talking in general about scientific discoveries - not just battery development. The Chinese will need to do a bit more than develop the Li-ion battery to get BEV technology to compete with ICE. For example how many Chinese have won the Nobel prize in science? None. Then think of all the really great discoveries that have been made by the British - Newton, Bohr, Rutherford, etc etc. In fact we're second only to the USA. I can see you've never studied science BvL or you would be aware of the immense contributions we've made to science. If it had been left to the Chinese we'd still be wondering what makes up the atom. Rutherford was from New Zealand and Bohr was Danish. |
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Post by jonksy on Feb 8, 2024 19:18:04 GMT
Ford loses $47k per EV sold as electric bet backfires...
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Post by jonksy on Feb 8, 2024 19:19:45 GMT
MINI (like BMW) is leading with a strategy of choice. That means we'll see the brand offer ICE powered cars alongside all new EVs simultaneously. For MINI this strategy will directly impact its FAAR (F66) and FAAR WE (U25) platforms. This also means some of these models will have unusually long lifespans.
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Post by steppenwolf on Feb 9, 2024 9:03:11 GMT
Ford loses $47k per EV sold as electric bet backfires...
Even with the govt subsidies no BEV car manufacturer makes a profit out of selling BEVs. They all fund their BEV manufacture from profits made from the ICE car division (or the hybrid division, which is the same thing because hybrids are overwhelmingly fueled by petrol/diesel). Tesla is different in that it has no ICE car division. It funds its loss-making BEVs out of selling carbon credits to the traditional car manufacturers. You don't really have to look at this "business model" very long to see that it doesn't work. Alan Sugar could spot it in seconds. When the traditional car manufacturers are no longer allowed to sell ICE cars there will be NO profits to fund BEVs. And when they're not making profits they won't be able to buy Tesla's carbon credits - and when they don't make ICE cars they won't NEED to buy carbon credits. So the whole lot go BUST.  It's so obvious. And it's all exactly as Dyson said - the cost of battery manufacture is so high that he said it wasn't possible to make a profit selling BEVs. Dyson isn't a fool. Exactly what Musk is doing making these dead-end cars is more complex. He seems to making an accounting profit (for the moment) and his company has a stock value that's larger than all other car companies put together and he's using this to allow himself to syphon off large amounts of money from Tesla by laoding it with debt against the stock value. And you don't need to know much about the stock market to see where this all ends. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Feb 9, 2024 9:10:33 GMT
I was talking in general about scientific discoveries - not just battery development. The Chinese will need to do a bit more than develop the Li-ion battery to get BEV technology to compete with ICE. For example how many Chinese have won the Nobel prize in science? None. Then think of all the really great discoveries that have been made by the British - Newton, Bohr, Rutherford, etc etc. In fact we're second only to the USA. I can see you've never studied science BvL or you would be aware of the immense contributions we've made to science. If it had been left to the Chinese we'd still be wondering what makes up the atom. Rutherford was from New Zealand and Bohr was Danish. Prat. If you'd ever studied science you would be struck by the vast number of British scientists who were at the leading edge of the greatest discoveries of all time. James Chadwick discovered the neutron for example and got a Nobel prize for it - though the Americans think it was Oppenheimer. We'll leave it to the chinese to tinker with Li-ion cells to try to make them work properly - but I think it's beyond tinkering. This needs some kind of amazing breakthrough. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 9, 2024 13:21:18 GMT
Rutherford was from New Zealand and Bohr was Danish. Prat. If you'd ever studied science you would be struck by the vast number of British scientists who were at the leading edge of the greatest discoveries of all time. James Chadwick discovered the neutron for example and got a Nobel prize for it - though the Americans think it was Oppenheimer. We'll leave it to the chinese to tinker with Li-ion cells to try to make them work properly - but I think it's beyond tinkering. This needs some kind of amazing breakthrough. I'd be a little more impressed if you mentioned Dirac from Bristol, but then I suppose what he did was a little incomprehensible to many, unlike Newton who appears in popular culture. Rutherford worked at my old university. |
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Post by jonksy on Feb 9, 2024 14:06:51 GMT
Ex-Top Gear host James May blasts electric cars - ‘nowhere near good enough'.....
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