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Post by steppenwolf on Feb 1, 2024 8:46:23 GMT
PHEV's are the only currently workable solution - however they are still going to be banned in 2035 unless the Governments in Europe get a dose of common sense and give ICE cars a reprieve. 2035 is over a decade away. Battery technology is advancing — plus, unless I'd got a classic (like my Dad's MKII 3.8 Jag), I can't imagine keeping a car that long, and even then not for daily use... This is the casual attitude of the ignorant - don't worry about problems because the scientists will solve them in a few years. That's the mistake they made when incentivising people to buy diesels. Don't worry about NOx because scientists can solve that. Of course it can be solved with reduction catalysts and a tank of ammonia, but it didn't prove very popular with car drivers. There are also problems that are actually inherent in a technology - like batteries. The basic inherent problem with batteries is "energy density" - or lack of it. The energy density of fossil fuels is huge. For example there's enough energy in 10 gallons of fuel to go 400 miles in an average car. That fuel weighs about 30kgms. To take an average BEV 400 miles needs (at the very minimum) a 100kWh battery, which weighs 600 kgms - 20 times the weight of petrol. Which is half the weight of an average ICE car. And this is a physical limitation of batteries, because there aren't many lighter alternatives to lithium (with an atomic number of 3) for batteries. And the other physical limitation inherent in electricity is that it's difficult to transfer quickly. For example 10 gallons of petrol can be put in a tank in about 2 minutes. To transfer the same amount of energy in electricity would need a 3000kW charger. Quite apart from the fact that the National Grid can't even handle 150kw chargers now - and would need massive upgrading to do even that - you can see the nature of the problem. And the diameter of the copper cable needed to handle a 3000kW charger without melting would be vast (about 10 inches IIRC). No one could handle it. Science can do great things, but it can't achieve miracles. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Feb 1, 2024 8:59:07 GMT
One might as well predict that, because IC technology is advancing, the 'issues' with IC engines will be sorted out by 2035. The Walt Disney version of technological advancement - it will happen if you wish hard enough ? ICEs can already run off hydrogen. The main development needed is to eliminate the NOx (which is created when hydrogen is burned in air), but there are companies who claim to have cracked this. As for being carbon neutral they can also achieve this if they're run off synthetic fuel - so the CO2 emitted by the engine is just CO2 that has been removed from the atmosphere during its production. Obviously it takes more energy to create because, if you use oil, you get most of the energy intensive work done by the Sun in creating the oil. However if you run the synthetic fuel creation plant off renewables (like solar) that doesn't matter so much. It's basically a way of storing solar. |
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Post by jonksy on Feb 1, 2024 9:18:55 GMT
Don’t you think it’s doubtful that ICE will advance enough to run off hydrogen or put fossil fuels back in the ground…? ICEs can already run off hydrogen. The main development needed is to eliminate the NOx (which is created when hydrogen is burned in air), but there are companies who claim to have cracked this. As for being carbon neutral they can also achieve this if they're run off synthetic fuel - so the CO2 emitted by the engine is just CO2 that has been removed from the atmosphere during its production. Obviously it takes more energy to create because, if you use oil, you get most of the energy intensive work done by the Sun in creating the oil. However if you run the synthetic fuel creation plant off renewables (like solar) that doesn't matter so much. It's basically a way of storing solar. |
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Post by patman post on Feb 1, 2024 11:02:53 GMT
Fuelling vehicles by water has been sold to the gullible for around 100 years. Brazil laced its petrol with vast quantities of sugar-cane alcohol only to find the production residue was polluting its water.
Like analogue communications over copper cables, ICE technology is coming to the end of its ubiquity as it’s being pincered by finite fuel resources and awareness of the costs of pollution….
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Post by patman post on Feb 1, 2024 11:07:26 GMT
One technology, battery technology, and that is no so far advanced over what was available 100 years ago, it powers Moon and other interplanetary rovers. The uncomplicated technology of the motor and regeneration remains the same… If it was superior to other technologies they wouldn't have to ban the other technologies - we didn't ban EV's to jump into ICE cars. Only production and sales will be banned. It will still be legal to own, service and drive ICE vehicles way into the time, like snuff boxes, they become collectors’ curiosities… |
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Post by Pacifico on Feb 1, 2024 11:30:10 GMT
If it was superior to other technologies they wouldn't have to ban the other technologies - we didn't ban EV's to jump into ICE cars. Only production and sales will be banned. It will still be legal to own, service and drive ICE vehicles way into the time, like snuff boxes, they become collectors’ curiosities… Yes - obsolescence through government diktat. This really is the only technological 'advance' where we have ended up with a product that is worse than the one it replaced. |
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Post by patman post on Feb 1, 2024 12:43:31 GMT
Only production and sales will be banned. It will still be legal to own, service and drive ICE vehicles way into the time, like snuff boxes, they become collectors’ curiosities… Yes - obsolescence through government diktat. This really is the only technological 'advance' where we have ended up with a product that is worse than the one it replaced. So we agree that nothing is currently banned, and your antipathy to EVs is based on info you've been fed.
I've had two BMW X5 diesels. I liked them and if ICE vehicles were a sensible option for the future, I'd still be looking for something similar.
But as it is, I have also experienced both hybrid and fully electric cars and enjoy the quiet, smooth power and rapid unfussy acceleration that electric motors give. So I think they are the future, and I am expecting my motoring over the next decades to be EV and battery based...
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Post by Orac on Feb 1, 2024 13:13:54 GMT
Yes - obsolescence through government diktat. This really is the only technological 'advance' where we have ended up with a product that is worse than the one it replaced. So we agree that nothing is currently banned...
We see the same dishonesty again and again on this point. This is what pac said - "If it was superior to other technologies they wouldn't have to ban the other technologies."He didn't specify that the ban was currently applied or that it banned both used vehicles and new vehicles. However, his argument still applies Pac latter adds more information by talking about obsolescence through diktat, which is a precise description of aims and nature of the ban. However , you just ignore this and plough right on with a straw-man |
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Post by patman post on Feb 1, 2024 13:37:01 GMT
So we agree that nothing is currently banned...
We see the same dishonesty again and again on this point. This is what pac said - "If it was superior to other technologies they wouldn't have to ban the other technologies."He didn't specify that the ban was currently applied or that it banned both used vehicles and new vehicles. However, his argument still applies Pac latter adds more information by talking about obsolescence through diktat, which is a precise description of aims and nature of the ban. However , you just ignore this and plough right on with a straw-man But there is no ban of ICE vehicles.
There is currently the promise of a ban on selling of ICE vehicles, but there is no promise of a ban on the use of ICE vehicles after any given date.
What we know is that there will be a ban on selling petrol and diesel ICE cars and vans from 2035 — over a decade from now! — but we don't know that petrol and diesel ICE cars and vans will also be banned from UK roads.
In fact, Auto Express reports:
Second-hand cars will be unaffected by the ICE (internal combustion engine) ban, and may be bought and sold freely just as now. That means that very many older petrol and diesel cars, plus conventional hybrids and plug-in models, are likely to be in use long after the 2035 deadline for selling new ones.
Where's the straw in that...?
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Post by Orac on Feb 1, 2024 13:44:00 GMT
We see the same dishonesty again and again on this point. This is what pac said - "If it was superior to other technologies they wouldn't have to ban the other technologies."He didn't specify that the ban was currently applied or that it banned both used vehicles and new vehicles. However, his argument still applies Pac latter adds more information by talking about obsolescence through diktat, which is a precise description of aims and nature of the ban. However , you just ignore this and plough right on with a straw-man But there is no ban of ICE vehicles. But Pac did not specify that the ban was currently applied or that it would effect used vehicles. Pac did specify that the ban is intended to force obsolescence , a point which makes your equivocation moot. Regardless, you persist in pretending he said something he didn't say. |
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Post by patman post on Feb 1, 2024 14:06:47 GMT
But there is no ban of ICE vehicles. But Pac did specify that the ban was currently applied or that it would effect used vehicles. Pac did specify that the ban is intended to force obsolescence , a point which makes your equivocation moot. Regardless, you persist in pretending he said something he didn't say. I don't understand your defence. The promised ban will apply to the sale of new ICE cars and vans and will come in 2035.
Anyone with an ICE car or van that's still serviceable after that will be able to continue to use it and (according to Auto Express) also be able to part exchange it for another used car or van.
As an aside, forced obsolescence isn't new — incandescent light bulbs, DDT, and domestic coal fires are among things substituted by healthier and/or more efficient replacements...
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Post by Orac on Feb 1, 2024 14:20:30 GMT
But Pac did specify that the ban was currently applied or that it would effect used vehicles. Pac did specify that the ban is intended to force obsolescence , a point which makes your equivocation moot. Regardless, you persist in pretending he said something he didn't say. I don't understand your defence. The promised ban will apply to the sale of new ICE cars and vans and will come in 2035. ..and this supports his stated point entirely. That the ban is intended to create a forced obsolescence of a competing and superior technologyMeanwhile, you continue to pretend he said something he did not. |
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Post by patman post on Feb 1, 2024 14:41:11 GMT
I don't understand your defence. The promised ban will apply to the sale of new ICE cars and vans and will come in 2035. ..and this supports his stated point entirely. That the ban is intended to create a forced obsolescence of a competing and superior technologyMeanwhile, you continue to pretend he said something he did not. As we're going to get nowhere with your obsessive blindness to what was posted, let's try another tack: why is an ICE "a competing and superior technology" to an electric motor?
I bet there are more electric motors working in the world today than there are internal combustion engines.
Imagine the noise and small if your fridge, vacuum cleaner and washing machine were powered by internal combustion engines — incidentally, all those have in the past been available as gas powered and/or human muscle powered items, but electric motors proved superior.
I'm confident the simplicity and robustness of electric motors will prove superior for vehicles too, but I guess we'll have to wait to see me eventually proved right...
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Post by Orac on Feb 1, 2024 14:48:01 GMT
..and this supports his stated point entirely. That the ban is intended to create a forced obsolescence of a competing and superior technologyMeanwhile, you continue to pretend he said something he did not. As we're going to get nowhere with your obsessive blindness to what was posted, let's try another tack: why is an ICE "a competing and superior technology" to an electric motor?
I bet there are more electric motors working in the world today than there are internal combustion engines. Pac's point was about ICE automobiles, not fridges. An ICE automobile is a competitor / alternative technology to a BEV automobile. Hence the need for a ban - that is, to prevent or blunt what could reasonably be seen as its likely consequence of that competition. |
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Post by patman post on Feb 1, 2024 15:05:41 GMT
As we're going to get nowhere with your obsessive blindness to what was posted, let's try another tack: why is an ICE "a competing and superior technology" to an electric motor?
I bet there are more electric motors working in the world today than there are internal combustion engines. Pac's point was about ICE automobiles, not fridges. An ICE automobile is a competitor / alternative technology to a BEV automobile. Hence the need for a ban - that is, to prevent or blunt what could reasonably be seen as its likely consequence of that competition. That supposes the coming ban on ICE cars and vans is entirely to promote BEVs.
What could reasonably be seen as the likely consequence of competition between ICE and electric powered vehicles? And who would be the losers, and in what way, and why...?
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