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Post by zanygame on Dec 9, 2023 7:45:41 GMT
A few of may know I paint. This is my latest one, most are average, but I'm pleased with this. Do you watch Bob Ross ZG? Yeah now and then, the guy is a genius, he makes it look so easy. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 9, 2023 7:54:26 GMT
perhaps because you dont have an EV? - just a wild guess.. Maybe. are hybrids with batteries not effected? And my son and my mate have not seen theirs rise much either. well as we have had hybrids in the UK for over 2 decades I think any issues with insurance would have been sorted out by now.. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 9, 2023 8:23:55 GMT
Maybe. are hybrids with batteries not effected? And my son and my mate have not seen theirs rise much either. well as we have had hybrids in the UK for over 2 decades I think any issues with insurance would have been sorted out by now.. Good point, but the increase in EV insurance is supposed to be about recent battery worries and Hybrids have batteries, quite large ones these days. And as I say my son and my mate both say their full EV insurance hasn't climbed much. What I'm trying to establish is the reason for the increase. Could it be the acceleration of these vehicles leading to a greater number of accidents among younger drivers added to the cost of repairing them and the lack of garages who can do it? Perhaps a combination of all of these leading to a massive hike among a small group. www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/fleets-urged-to-educate-insurers-increasing-premiums-for-electric-vehicles#:~:text=Electric%20vehicle%20insurance%20premium%20increases%20'based%20on%20bad%20data',-By%20Gareth%20Roberts&text=Insurance%20premiums%20on%20electric%20vehicles,for%20Fleet%20Professionals%20(AFP). This offers some explanations. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Dec 9, 2023 9:19:24 GMT
well as we have had hybrids in the UK for over 2 decades I think any issues with insurance would have been sorted out by now.. Good point, but the increase in EV insurance is supposed to be about recent battery worries and Hybrids have batteries, quite large ones these days. And as I say my son and my mate both say their full EV insurance hasn't climbed much. What I'm trying to establish is the reason for the increase. Could it be the acceleration of these vehicles leading to a greater number of accidents among younger drivers added to the cost of repairing them and the lack of garages who can do it? Perhaps a combination of all of these leading to a massive hike among a small group. www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/fleets-urged-to-educate-insurers-increasing-premiums-for-electric-vehicles#:~:text=Electric%20vehicle%20insurance%20premium%20increases%20'based%20on%20bad%20data',-By%20Gareth%20Roberts&text=Insurance%20premiums%20on%20electric%20vehicles,for%20Fleet%20Professionals%20(AFP). This offers some explanations. The reason that John Lewis stopped insuring EVs (I'm not sure if that included hybrids) was because their underwriter decided that the costs of repair were higher than conventional cars and they could no longer be sure what the cost of repair would be in future. The main problem is that batteries can be damaged by even quite minor accidents, and if there's any chance that the battery is damaged it needs replacing because of the dangers of fire. If the battery needs replacing then it often means it's an "uneconomic repair", so the car is written off. And they're are finding that EVs are more likely to be written off than conventional cars. I don't see any reason why hybrids should be less prone to this damage than BEVs, because they also have Li-ion batteries that are prone to damage. However their batteries are considerably smaller than pure EVs so they're much cheaper to replace (about 20% of the price). EVs being more likely to be written off is quite worrying in itself because of the huge CO2 emissions involved in vehicle manufacture - if EVs are being written off more often it may completely offset any slight advantages that these cars have in CO2 emissions. On the subject of hybrid EVs mpg, you can indeed work out an equivalent "mpg" figure for electric power. As a rough rule of thumb petrol at £1.50/litre is equivalent to electricity at 30p/kWh. So if you're getting electricity at 7.5p/kWh you're effectively quadrupling your "mpg" - so, very simplistically, 40mpg becomes 160mpg. But you need to be very careful because 7.5p/kWh is way below cost price and the only way a provider can afford this is if they charge you more for on-peak electricity. So you need to add up all the electricity you use outside the cheap rate and work out how much you're paying over the odds - and add that to the cost of running your car. I think you'll find it's not as cheap as you think. And when you add in the extra cost of buying the hybrid (several thousand quid) you have to save an awful lot in electricity costs to make the hybrid cheaper to run that the straight diesel. As I said, it's just a "cheat" to get round the WLTP test and save car manufacturers from massive fines for producing inefficient cars. And it's more damaging to the planet than buying the straight ICE car. BTW that link is crap, especially the bit about fires. The problem with Li-ion batteries is that the fires can't be put out. They will burn until the battery is completely destroyed and they emit highly toxic fumes and burn at very temperatures. So they cause huge damage. I'm actually surprised that these batteries are even legal for use in cars. They're very dangerous. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 9, 2023 10:51:25 GMT
Good point, but the increase in EV insurance is supposed to be about recent battery worries and Hybrids have batteries, quite large ones these days. And as I say my son and my mate both say their full EV insurance hasn't climbed much. What I'm trying to establish is the reason for the increase. Could it be the acceleration of these vehicles leading to a greater number of accidents among younger drivers added to the cost of repairing them and the lack of garages who can do it? Perhaps a combination of all of these leading to a massive hike among a small group. www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/fleets-urged-to-educate-insurers-increasing-premiums-for-electric-vehicles#:~:text=Electric%20vehicle%20insurance%20premium%20increases%20'based%20on%20bad%20data',-By%20Gareth%20Roberts&text=Insurance%20premiums%20on%20electric%20vehicles,for%20Fleet%20Professionals%20(AFP). This offers some explanations. The reason that John Lewis stopped insuring EVs (I'm not sure if that included hybrids) was because their underwriter decided that the costs of repair were higher than conventional cars and they could no longer be sure what the cost of repair would be in future. The main problem is that batteries can be damaged by even quite minor accidents, and if there's any chance that the battery is damaged it needs replacing because of the dangers of fire. If the battery needs replacing then it often means it's an "uneconomic repair", so the car is written off. And they're are finding that EVs are more likely to be written off than conventional cars. I don't see any reason why hybrids should be less prone to this damage than BEVs, because they also have Li-ion batteries that are prone to damage. However their batteries are considerably smaller than pure EVs so they're much cheaper to replace (about 20% of the price). EVs being more likely to be written off is quite worrying in itself because of the huge CO2 emissions involved in vehicle manufacture - if EVs are being written off more often it may completely offset any slight advantages that these cars have in CO2 emissions. There is some truth in this, the insurance companies seem to have decided due to lack of data that in a write off accident the battery has no value. As far as I can find out there is no significant difference in write off rates between EV's and ICE vehicles. Do you have any evidence to back up the claim or is this just your opinion. As you wish. Its a bit complicated because I use other appliances at night (Including my heat pumps) so the 7.5p rate does not just apply to my car. However in a bid for clarity I will leave hem out to represent an average user. My day rate for Octopus is 31p per kWh, that is 4p per kWh more expensive than the cheapest quoted rate I can find. I use roughly twice the amount of electricity during the day as I do at night So for arguments sake I will add the 8p onto my 7.5p At 15.5p per kWh Sum 15.5x 14 kWh =38 miles (Approx 1 gallon in a big car like mine) 15.5x 14= £2.17 per gallon. But TBH even at 27p per kWh the sum is 27x 14= £3.78 per gallon. How much do you pay? Most of my journeys (and yours I suspect if you are honest) are less than 38 miles which is why my overall cost per mile is so much cheaper and how that translated into 168mpg if you do the sums. Frankly I didn't do the sums to impress people on here, I did them because I wanted to know if the extra 15k I paid for my hybrid would pay for itself. They mention the fierceness of the fires in the article (below) so they are considered. The fire risk of EVs also appears to be a concern for insurers, with the potential for damage to then spread beyond the vehicle itself to other cars and vans, as well as surrounding property. However, Hollick said: “EV fires, when they occur, are a serious issue, but experience so far shows that they are very rare – substantially less likely than fires in ICE vehicles – and we are unaware of cases where there has been a fire and a significant amount of harm has been caused in the immediate vicinity. The risk is just not that high.”
Research by the Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency, published in report in May 2023, revealed that internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles were 20 times more likely to catch fire than EVs in Sweden Sweden recorded 106 fires in various electrified modes of transport in 2022. More than half were in e-scooters (38) and e-bikes (20). Out of Sweden’s 611,000 electric vehicles, 23 fires (0.004%) were reported. The fleet of 4.4 million petrol and diesel vehicles recorded 3,400 fires (0.08%). Separate global research from EV FireSafe found that 0.0012% of electric passenger vehicles caught fire from 2010 to 2023. Australia’s Department of Defence funded EV FireSafe to look into the question. It found there was a 0.0012% chance of a passenger electric vehicle battery catching fire, compared with a 0.1% chance for internal combustion engine cars. Many of the rumours about Electric vehicles started because news outlets hungry for sensationalist stories stated electric vehicles and included the endless unregulated scooters in their figures. But the public was left to believe they were talking about cars. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 9, 2023 11:40:12 GMT
I believe that there are 2 main issues with insuring EV's when it comes to accidents - first the new restrictions on storage make that increasingly expensive and second that there is no market for scrapped EV's. With ICE cars there is a thriving business in repairing scrapped cars and putting them back on the road - the problems with the battery mean that there is no equivalent for EV's.
So the Insurance company get hammered on storage costs and hammered on disposal costs.
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 11, 2023 8:08:53 GMT
Ouch! - ownership of an EV is a niche option, only for those that fit the specific criteria.. FWIW - that cost is about double my Range Rover.. and I thought that was expensive to run..  "To keep it topped up, I had to use public chargers all over the place, from a 45p/kWh slow charge in Tetbury to a 79p/kWh rapid charger at the motorway services on the M4. In the end, covering 508 miles cost around £200, which is frankly insane."
Mercedes E-Vito: vans are the ultimate family cars, but charging is too problematic |
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Post by steppenwolf on Dec 11, 2023 8:43:23 GMT
Sorry zany but your maths is nonsense. I've already said that if you always run off electric power (and therefore do very short journeys) AND you always charge up at home using electricity at 7.5p/kWh it will give you cheap motoring, but it's not equivalent to 168mpg. As you say the true cost of the electricity you use in your car is more like 15.5p/kWh, so that's half the price of petrol/diesel. So you could call your mpg equivalent to 80mpg. That's good but you are using your car in a very specific way, which most people don't.
As for the complacent nonsense of Li-ion fires, the fact is that they CANNOT be put out and they DO spread. There are a few fairly obvious examples of this where a car transporter caught fire at sea and 4,000 vehicles were written off after an electric car caught fire - and I think the car transporter was a write-off. There was the case of the Luton Airport fire where a car caught fire (no one has confirmed what car started it but it is known that there were many EVs in the fire) and 1500 cars were written off and the multi-storey car park will have to be demolished. And a recent case where an EV caught fire and burnt their house down. Also the London fire brigade say that there's a serious case of an Li-ion fire every other day.
And this is happening when hardly anyone has a BEV.
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Post by zanygame on Dec 11, 2023 17:56:38 GMT
Ouch! - ownership of an EV is a niche option, only for those that fit the specific criteria.. FWIW - that cost is about double my Range Rover.. and I thought that was expensive to run.. "To keep it topped up, I had to use public chargers all over the place, from a 45p/kWh slow charge in Tetbury to a 79p/kWh rapid charger at the motorway services on the M4. In the end, covering 508 miles cost around £200, which is frankly insane."
Mercedes E-Vito: vans are the ultimate family cars, but charging is too problematicVery stupid person. There are now dozens of schemes offering much cheaper charging at multiple sites. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 11, 2023 18:03:15 GMT
Sorry zany but your maths is nonsense. I've already said that if you always run off electric power (and therefore do very short journeys) AND you always charge up at home using electricity at 7.5p/kWh it will give you cheap motoring, but it's not equivalent to 168mpg. As you say the true cost of the electricity you use in your car is more like 15.5p/kWh, so that's half the price of petrol/diesel. So you could call your mpg equivalent to 80mpg. That's good but you are using your car in a very specific way, which most people don't. As for the complacent nonsense of Li-ion fires, the fact is that they CANNOT be put out and they DO spread. There are a few fairly obvious examples of this where a car transporter caught fire at sea and 4,000 vehicles were written off after an electric car caught fire - and I think the car transporter was a write-off. There was the case of the Luton Airport fire where a car caught fire (no one has confirmed what car started it but it is known that there were many EVs in the fire) and 1500 cars were written off and the multi-storey car park will have to be demolished. And a recent case where an EV caught fire and burnt their house down. Also the London fire brigade say that there's a serious case of an Li-ion fire every other day. And this is happening when hardly anyone has a BEV. I knew it would be. Whatever I put. But then I didn't expect a fair hearing. I didn't expect you to look at what you pay for electricity, or admit most of your days you travel less than 38 miles, or agree with the published figures that the average journey is only 16 miles. But you asked so I calculated. As for the danger of batteries, I gave you the stats. The Luton airport fire was started by a diesel. It was filmed and the fire service said it was a diesel. Sorry can't be arsed with this crap anymore. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 11, 2023 18:07:28 GMT
Ouch! - ownership of an EV is a niche option, only for those that fit the specific criteria.. FWIW - that cost is about double my Range Rover.. and I thought that was expensive to run.. "To keep it topped up, I had to use public chargers all over the place, from a 45p/kWh slow charge in Tetbury to a 79p/kWh rapid charger at the motorway services on the M4. In the end, covering 508 miles cost around £200, which is frankly insane."
Mercedes E-Vito: vans are the ultimate family cars, but charging is too problematicVery stupid person. There are now dozens of schemes offering much cheaper charging at multiple sites. I'm not sure making recharging even more complicated is the solution you think it is.. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 11, 2023 18:08:13 GMT
Very stupid person. There are now dozens of schemes offering much cheaper charging at multiple sites. I'm not sure making recharging even more complicated is the solution you think it is.. Or simpler for the vast majority who can use an app. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 11, 2023 18:16:35 GMT
I'm not sure making recharging even more complicated is the solution you think it is.. Or simpler for the vast majority who can use an app. So you need another app - great if you are in a place with poor phone reception. Anyway looking at some they charge the same rate - some might have a a discount at some recharge points but its not guaranteed. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 11, 2023 18:29:00 GMT
Or simpler for the vast majority who can use an app. So you need another app - great if you are in a place with poor phone reception. Anyway looking at some they charge the same rate - some might have a a discount at some recharge points but its not guaranteed. Strangely they don't seem to place large charging stations in places with no wifi. I'm pretty certain you haven't looked around for the best deals on offer. God forbid that you seek a fair and level playing field for your debate. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 11, 2023 18:37:02 GMT
So you need another app - great if you are in a place with poor phone reception. Anyway looking at some they charge the same rate - some might have a a discount at some recharge points but its not guaranteed. Strangely they don't seem to place large charging stations in places with no wifi. I'm pretty certain you haven't looked around for the best deals on offer. God forbid that you seek a fair and level playing field for your debate. Tell what deal you have in mind. I looked at the octopus one and paua. So educate us - the ball is in your court. |
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