|
|
Post by steppenwolf on Dec 7, 2023 9:20:55 GMT
Full charge in five minutes with current battery technology? You may have to provide a link before I believe you. In fact, you will definately have to provide a link... Who knows if they will turn up in the UK. Remember we banned their telephone exchanges.
I cross-referenced this with some other report from Australia. CATL's 1000km range battery pack is designed to charge at this rate according to reports in China.
We have a problem though selling EVs on the EU market due to the rules of origin. So much has to be made in the EU + Britain in order to qualify for tariff-free trade when selling, or else they hit us with a 10% tax (I think). You can see the problem though. How the fuck are we going to sell cars that take 5 hours to charge against cheaper ones that do double the range and charge in 5m!
To do 1000km on one charge it will need a 200 kWh battery (minimum). To charge that in 5 minutes would need a 2,400 kW charger (minimum). Have you any idea of the problems that will cause BvL? 1) Our National Grid can't currently reliably drive more than about a 7kW charger. The so-called fast chargers that we have here (like 150kW) are too fast for the Grid to power. "CAR" tried charging on a 150kW charger and it averaged 40kW because the Grid can't supply more than that currently (except transiently). And the cost of upgrading the Grid to support faster rates would be absolutely monumental. In fact it would be basically impossible anyway. 2) How big would the cable have to be supply that charge (without melting)? My guess is it would be too heavy for anyone to carry unless it was a superconductor. 3) I don't think a Li-ion battery could be designed to take this rate of charge - even with special cooling. So I'm guessing they're using solid state batteries. These are not available yet for commercial use - I don't think anyone yet uses them in cars. Maybe they'll be available in 10 years, maybe not. It's all future technology. You seem to have missed the point BvL. Pure electric cars are NEVER going to rival the convenience of petrol/diesel cars because, like it or not, oil is a fantastically dense energy source. Electricity is NOT. And it's very difficult and expensive to store. These are intractable problems that can't be overcome because they're inherent in the nature of electricity. Delivering electricity at anywhere near the rate that petrol can be delivered can possibly be done in special laboratory conditions with special equipment but it will NEVER be done on a station forecourt. BEVs are just such an obvious technological dead end that it baffles me why so many manufacturers are making them. The pure BEV market is dying before it even really started. The public just won't buy them, except for a few oddballs or people who just want a shopping car. |
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Dec 7, 2023 11:31:08 GMT
Who knows if they will turn up in the UK. Remember we banned their telephone exchanges.
I cross-referenced this with some other report from Australia. CATL's 1000km range battery pack is designed to charge at this rate according to reports in China.
We have a problem though selling EVs on the EU market due to the rules of origin. So much has to be made in the EU + Britain in order to qualify for tariff-free trade when selling, or else they hit us with a 10% tax (I think). You can see the problem though. How the fuck are we going to sell cars that take 5 hours to charge against cheaper ones that do double the range and charge in 5m!
To do 1000km on one charge it will need a 200 kWh battery (minimum). To charge that in 5 minutes would need a 2,400 kW charger (minimum). Have you any idea of the problems that will cause BvL? 1) Our National Grid can't currently reliably drive more than about a 7kW charger. The so-called fast chargers that we have here (like 150kW) are too fast for the Grid to power. "CAR" tried charging on a 150kW charger and it averaged 40kW because the Grid can't supply more than that currently (except transiently). And the cost of upgrading the Grid to support faster rates would be absolutely monumental. In fact it would be basically impossible anyway. 2) How big would the cable have to be supply that charge (without melting)? My guess is it would be too heavy for anyone to carry unless it was a superconductor. 3) I don't think a Li-ion battery could be designed to take this rate of charge - even with special cooling. So I'm guessing they're using solid state batteries. These are not available yet for commercial use - I don't think anyone yet uses them in cars. Maybe they'll be available in 10 years, maybe not. It's all future technology. You seem to have missed the point BvL. Pure electric cars are NEVER going to rival the convenience of petrol/diesel cars because, like it or not, oil is a fantastically dense energy source. Electricity is NOT. And it's very difficult and expensive to store. These are intractable problems that can't be overcome because they're inherent in the nature of electricity. Delivering electricity at anywhere near the rate that petrol can be delivered can possibly be done in special laboratory conditions with special equipment but it will NEVER be done on a station forecourt. BEVs are just such an obvious technological dead end that it baffles me why so many manufacturers are making them. The pure BEV market is dying before it even really started. The public just won't buy them, except for a few oddballs or people who just want a shopping car. I do not think the firm is bullshitting though. I just think China is becoming as far a had in technology as the gap that existed between us and primitive African culture. What they can do, we can not. Absolutely no surprise for me. We will have to wait until the end of next year to see who is right. In the meantime check their latest phone, the P60. It's causing all these Americans to scratch their heads on how they did the impossible. |
|
|
|
Post by jonksy on Dec 7, 2023 11:38:20 GMT
To do 1000km on one charge it will need a 200 kWh battery (minimum). To charge that in 5 minutes would need a 2,400 kW charger (minimum). Have you any idea of the problems that will cause BvL? 1) Our National Grid can't currently reliably drive more than about a 7kW charger. The so-called fast chargers that we have here (like 150kW) are too fast for the Grid to power. "CAR" tried charging on a 150kW charger and it averaged 40kW because the Grid can't supply more than that currently (except transiently). And the cost of upgrading the Grid to support faster rates would be absolutely monumental. In fact it would be basically impossible anyway. 2) How big would the cable have to be supply that charge (without melting)? My guess is it would be too heavy for anyone to carry unless it was a superconductor. 3) I don't think a Li-ion battery could be designed to take this rate of charge - even with special cooling. So I'm guessing they're using solid state batteries. These are not available yet for commercial use - I don't think anyone yet uses them in cars. Maybe they'll be available in 10 years, maybe not. It's all future technology. You seem to have missed the point BvL. Pure electric cars are NEVER going to rival the convenience of petrol/diesel cars because, like it or not, oil is a fantastically dense energy source. Electricity is NOT. And it's very difficult and expensive to store. These are intractable problems that can't be overcome because they're inherent in the nature of electricity. Delivering electricity at anywhere near the rate that petrol can be delivered can possibly be done in special laboratory conditions with special equipment but it will NEVER be done on a station forecourt. BEVs are just such an obvious technological dead end that it baffles me why so many manufacturers are making them. The pure BEV market is dying before it even really started. The public just won't buy them, except for a few oddballs or people who just want a shopping car. I do not think the firm is bullshitting though. I just think China is becoming as far a had in technology as the gap that existed between us and primitive African culture. What they can do, we can not. Absolutely no surprise for me. We will have to wait until the end of next year to see who is right. In the meantime check their latest phone, the P60. It's causing all these Americans to scratch their heads on how they did the impossible. The P60 is a toytal peice of crap compared to the 5G ga;axy ultra. |
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Dec 7, 2023 11:42:42 GMT
I do not think the firm is bullshitting though. I just think China is becoming as far a had in technology as the gap that existed between us and primitive African culture. What they can do, we can not. Absolutely no surprise for me. We will have to wait until the end of next year to see who is right. In the meantime check their latest phone, the P60. It's causing all these Americans to scratch their heads on how they did the impossible. The P60 is a toytal peice of crap compared to the 5G ga;axy ultra. Does the Galaxy do satellite calls? |
|
|
|
Post by steppenwolf on Dec 7, 2023 13:50:12 GMT
Sorry BvL, but China is not technologically ahead of the West. You don't get ahead of us by copying what we do. Where they do have an advantage is in manufacture, which is mainly because the Chinese state subsidises industry so that they can produce goods very cheaply. But it's still stuff that we've already done all the R&D on and that we invented. The Chinese just produce it cheaply (and often badly) and reap the profits.
But this isn't relevant to the BEV argument. China is indeed churning out cheap batteries for BEVs but they're probably like their solar panels - crap. And their claims that they can charge a 600 mile range battery in 5 minutes are obvious BS that only you would believe. Even so you again miss the main point that EVEN if they could do this it's of no value to us (or them probably) because no one has the infrastructure to supply the charger - and probably NEVER will.
|
|
|
|
Post by jonksy on Dec 7, 2023 14:00:07 GMT
The P60 is a toytal peice of crap compared to the 5G ga;axy ultra. Does the Galaxy do satellite calls? Nope. And neither does the C6 baron. Nobody wants satelite calls these days it is old hat. Even the molitary have junked theirs. |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Dec 7, 2023 19:18:57 GMT
Even you must know how poor that comparison is. Your diesel doesn't do 168mpg zany. In fact it does less mpg than the equivalent Kia diesel that doesn't have hybrid technology - for the simple reason that the conventional car is much lighter. It may be cheaper to run than the straight diesel (if you charge it up before each journey and only do short journeys) and take advantage of a cheap off-peak electricity deal but it's deliberately misleading to say it's doing 168mpg, because it's not. It's doing about 35mpg. And you need to factor in that, while Octopus gives you cheap off-peak electricity, it charges more for electricity that's not off-peak. No free lunches. Your hybrid is basically a diesel car (which is decidedly NOT green) with a small battery that allows it to fool the WLTP test - and therefore ovoid Kia paying massive fines for producing cars that are inefficient and do poor mpg. I'm going to take a break from here Steppen. There is little genuine debate left. Just these stupid word games you like to play. I can't be bothered to keep explaining the arguments, the maths etc. I have done it 3 times now. You are not interested in the arguments or moving forward, just impressing morons like Bentley. Sorry this level of conversation is not for me. |
|
|
|
Post by steppenwolf on Dec 8, 2023 8:40:26 GMT
Your diesel doesn't do 168mpg zany. In fact it does less mpg than the equivalent Kia diesel that doesn't have hybrid technology - for the simple reason that the conventional car is much lighter. It may be cheaper to run than the straight diesel (if you charge it up before each journey and only do short journeys) and take advantage of a cheap off-peak electricity deal but it's deliberately misleading to say it's doing 168mpg, because it's not. It's doing about 35mpg. And you need to factor in that, while Octopus gives you cheap off-peak electricity, it charges more for electricity that's not off-peak. No free lunches. Your hybrid is basically a diesel car (which is decidedly NOT green) with a small battery that allows it to fool the WLTP test - and therefore ovoid Kia paying massive fines for producing cars that are inefficient and do poor mpg. I'm going to take a break from here Steppen. There is little genuine debate left. Just these stupid word games you like to play. I can't be bothered to keep explaining the arguments, the maths etc. I have done it 3 times now. You are not interested in the arguments or moving forward, just impressing morons like Bentley. Sorry this level of conversation is not for me.  I'm just stating the facts zany. If you have a car that does 40mpg in straight diesel form, you can't make it do 160mpg by adding about 300kgms of weight (for a battery capable of 30 miles and a small electric motor). It's nonsense. Of course if you do short journeys and charge it up before each journey you can claim you're doing any mpg you like (infinite mpg even) but all you're doing is using electric power instead of the ICE engine. That might be cheaper than using diesel (if you have a special deal on off-peak electricity) but I suggest that you check how much you're paying for electricity at other times, because I've looked at all the electricity rates (I'd been thinking of changing supplier) and they all look very similar - except that Octopus give you a special off-peak deal of 7.5p and jack up their other rates by about 10%. You need to check how much extra you're paying for your "not off-peak" electricity and add that to your motoring costs. Electricity has become VERY expensive. |
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Dec 8, 2023 9:45:17 GMT
I'm going to take a break from here Steppen. There is little genuine debate left. Just these stupid word games you like to play. I can't be bothered to keep explaining the arguments, the maths etc. I have done it 3 times now. You are not interested in the arguments or moving forward, just impressing morons like Bentley. Sorry this level of conversation is not for me. I'm just stating the facts zany. If you have a car that does 40mpg in straight diesel form, you can't make it do 160mpg by adding about 300kgms of weight (for a battery capable of 30 miles and a small electric motor). It's nonsense. Of course if you do short journeys and charge it up before each journey you can claim you're doing any mpg you like (infinite mpg even) but all you're doing is using electric power instead of the ICE engine. That might be cheaper than using diesel (if you have a special deal on off-peak electricity) but I suggest that you check how much you're paying for electricity at other times, because I've looked at all the electricity rates (I'd been thinking of changing supplier) and they all look very similar - except that Octopus give you a special off-peak deal of 7.5p and jack up their other rates by about 10%. You need to check how much extra you're paying for your "not off-peak" electricity and add that to your motoring costs. Electricity has become VERY expensive. Exactly. |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Dec 8, 2023 18:03:17 GMT
I'm going to take a break from here Steppen. There is little genuine debate left. Just these stupid word games you like to play. I can't be bothered to keep explaining the arguments, the maths etc. I have done it 3 times now. You are not interested in the arguments or moving forward, just impressing morons like Bentley. Sorry this level of conversation is not for me. I'm just stating the facts zany. If you have a car that does 40mpg in straight diesel form, you can't make it do 160mpg by adding about 300kgms of weight (for a battery capable of 30 miles and a small electric motor). It's nonsense. Of course if you do short journeys and charge it up before each journey you can claim you're doing any mpg you like (infinite mpg even) but all you're doing is using electric power instead of the ICE engine. That might be cheaper than using diesel (if you have a special deal on off-peak electricity) but I suggest that you check how much you're paying for electricity at other times, because I've looked at all the electricity rates (I'd been thinking of changing supplier) and they all look very similar - except that Octopus give you a special off-peak deal of 7.5p and jack up their other rates by about 10%. You need to check how much extra you're paying for your "not off-peak" electricity and add that to your motoring costs. Electricity has become VERY expensive. I do not believe you are incapable of understanding the calculations I have presented twice. Your argument was NOT that I'm not getting the deal I think I am. It was that I can't use electrical power at one price alongside petrol power at another price to create an equivalence to MPG. And that this makes me a liar. So either you are too stupid to understand of even ask for clarification, or you are playing stupid games because you have no sensible argument. Either way I'm not interested. |
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Dec 8, 2023 18:29:38 GMT
I'm just stating the facts zany. If you have a car that does 40mpg in straight diesel form, you can't make it do 160mpg by adding about 300kgms of weight (for a battery capable of 30 miles and a small electric motor). It's nonsense. Of course if you do short journeys and charge it up before each journey you can claim you're doing any mpg you like (infinite mpg even) but all you're doing is using electric power instead of the ICE engine. That might be cheaper than using diesel (if you have a special deal on off-peak electricity) but I suggest that you check how much you're paying for electricity at other times, because I've looked at all the electricity rates (I'd been thinking of changing supplier) and they all look very similar - except that Octopus give you a special off-peak deal of 7.5p and jack up their other rates by about 10%. You need to check how much extra you're paying for your "not off-peak" electricity and add that to your motoring costs. Electricity has become VERY expensive. I do not believe you are incapable of understanding the calculations I have presented twice. Your argument was NOT that I'm not getting the deal I think I am. It was that I can't use electrical power at one price alongside petrol power at another price to create an equivalence to MPG. And that this makes me a liar. So either you are too stupid to understand of even ask for clarification, or you are playing stupid games because you have no sensible argument. Either way I'm not interested. If you prefixed it “ equivalent of” instead of just MPG then you might have some credibility. At the moment your are calling oranges lemons and throwing your toys out of the pram when the sheer dishonesty of it is being pointed out |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Dec 8, 2023 19:21:15 GMT
I do not believe you are incapable of understanding the calculations I have presented twice. Your argument was NOT that I'm not getting the deal I think I am. It was that I can't use electrical power at one price alongside petrol power at another price to create an equivalence to MPG. And that this makes me a liar. So either you are too stupid to understand of even ask for clarification, or you are playing stupid games because you have no sensible argument. Either way I'm not interested. If you prefixed it “ equivalent of” instead of just MPG then you might have some credibility. At the moment your are calling oranges lemons and throwing your toys out of the pram when the sheer dishonesty of it is being pointed out I did and I explained my calculations. And I know you saw them at the time because you commented on them in your usual churlish way. |
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Dec 8, 2023 20:21:50 GMT
If you prefixed it “ equivalent of” instead of just MPG then you might have some credibility. At the moment your are calling oranges lemons and throwing your toys out of the pram when the sheer dishonesty of it is being pointed out I did and I explained my calculations. And I know you saw them at the time because you commented on them in your usual churlish way. You posted MPG without the prefix . Electricity is not petrol . |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Dec 8, 2023 20:48:58 GMT
I did and I explained my calculations. And I know you saw them at the time because you commented on them in your usual churlish way. You posted MPG without the prefix . Electricity is not petrol . Not originally I didn't as you well know. |
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Dec 8, 2023 20:54:43 GMT
You posted MPG without the prefix . Electricity is not petrol . Not originally I didn't as you well know. You need to post what you mean . Posting MPG for electric motor and whining that you don’t mean it because you posted something different a while ago doesn’t wash . |
|
I'm just stating the facts zany. If you have a car that does 40mpg in straight diesel form, you can't make it do 160mpg by adding about 300kgms of weight (for a battery capable of 30 miles and a small electric motor). It's nonsense. Of course if you do short journeys and charge it up before each journey you can claim you're doing any mpg you like (infinite mpg even) but all you're doing is using electric power instead of the ICE engine. 