Left, Right or Middle

SRB. Would you rather a centrist Labour government in power doing half of what you would like to happen or a leftist Labour party in opposition while the populist Tory party are in power doing nothing of what you want

Neither. Because voting for the least bad option all the time only encourages them never to do better. I wont be voting for either. And I very much doubt whether Labour will even do a tenth of what I want. I know how they think. I used to be in the party.

vote for who you like of course.  

Realistically after the next election, the Government will be either at least lead by a Tory or by Starmer's Labour.

Which of those would you prefer or are you saying you don't care between the two.

I am new to this thread and lack the inclination to read all nine pages, as much of it will inevitably have been posted by many of the usual suspects posting the usual drivel.

So apologies in advance if I am repeating anything someone else said pages ago.

I have seen enough to know that there have been repeated attempts by some to derail the thread onto their favourite hobby horses, eg immigration.

I will attempt a post that is actually relevant to the intended topic of this thread.

On this forum are those who are definitely right wing by and large, like Pacifico and Red Rackham.

There are those who would probably see themselves as Centrists like see 2 and Zany.

And there are those like me who are on the left.

A lot of mislabelling each other in support of false narratives takes place. I for example am frequently falsely labelled hard left or far left. Centrists are often derided by people on the left as Tories whilst people on the right call them socialists still. And right wingers are sometimes mislabelled far right. If we are all honest with each other and ourselves, I think we can all occasionally be guilty of this.

As for the wider political arena, it has become almost taken for granted political orthodoxy that parties need to be in the centre to win. This thinking tends to be reinforced by our voting system which gives undue influence to a relatively small number of swing voters in marginal seats.

But it is actually somewhat mythical that majority public opinion is in the centre ground in all things. Where majority public opinion is tends to vary according to the issue. On some issues majority opinion is in fact very right wing.

Crime and punishment for example. Majority opinion tends to want tougher sentences, zero tolerance of crime, more police officers, more police powers, harsher prison conditions, and so on.

Another area where the public veers to the right is on immigration This is not because they are all racists though there will be a minority who are. But mostly it is due to legitimate concerns about housing and local services being overwhelmed, and unwelcome competition for jobs and housing keeping pay low and rents high.

Majority opinion tends to be very supportive of the monarchy, which is more closely identified as a right wing point of view. Also very supportive of the armed forces.

And so on. But there are other areas where majority public opinion veers well to the left.

Examples include a majority believing that wealthy individuals and corporations should pay more tax. Majority public opinion has also turned against privatisation and is now more in favour of public ownership. Majority opinion tends to support higher minimum wages, better workers' rights, more social housing and a better deal for private tenants, for example.

And there will be some areas where the public are more readily in the centre. One example I can think of being green agendas, majority opinion recognising the issue as one that needs addressing but not at the expense of tanking the economy or making us a lot poorer. We want the gain without the pain. Too much in the way of increased costs on struggling working people invites majority opposition, but any green moves which involve a minimum of pain are generally supported.

Also, on top of all this is the matter of the wealthy elites who really control everything and own most of the media outlets telling us what to think. They tend to use wedge issues on the right which have traction with the public - eg immigration - to keep people voting the way they want them to, using these same issues to demonise the left. They are especially fearful of those potential left wing policies that are potentially highly popular but not in the interests of the wealthy elites. Any serious contender for power on the left advocating such policies, however popular the policies, will be relentlessly demonised and attacked. Calculating politicians on the left calculate that power will be easier to attain if the hostility of the media can be avoided, and especially if elements of it can be brought on side. Thus such politicians tend to move to the centre and eschew even those left wing policies that are likely to be popular, in order to keep the wealthy elites from waging all out war on them via their media outlets. In short, they calculate that power will be easier to attain if they keep the wealthy elites on side, so avoid too many policies that are against their interests, whatever might be popular amongst the public. This is what the Labour party is doing today, and it sign posts to left wingers like me a willingness to sell out the needs of the many in pursuit of power, no principle not up for sale.

Couple of things. 
I think some things are neither left nor right wing. Wanting to cut immigration is one case. How you would stop them might define your attitude towards humans but is this a left or right wing thing? 
On the more left left wing. I think the reason its unpopular is that it promises so much for the common man but so far has failed to ever deliver. Is this because it goes against human nature or that it is sabotaged by vested interests. I don't know, what I do know is there are numerous occasions when it has failed. 

That said I do think the majority want a fair chance and help for those who are struggling. Most want progressive tax. Most want free health care for everyone. 
And most recognise there are limits to this. Which is why most are central. 

Yes Red I know that. Illegal immigrants apply for asylum on arrival. (Its the only way they can) 
But you conflate Asylum seekers, illegal immigrants and legal immigrants in your arguments. 

I am not conflating anything. Someone who passes through several 'safe' borderless EU states then destroys all ID before paying a people trafficker to get him across the channel, is a criminal. It aint rocket science, it's common sense. Unless you're a lefty.