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Post by Red Rackham on Sept 25, 2023 13:15:03 GMT
Europe is facing a battle over gas boilers with a ban on the item threatening to cause major rebellions. The EU is considering a ban on the sale of stand-alone fossil-fuel-powered boilers from 2029. But the prospect of a ban has triggered fury among countries across Europe. Meanwhile, decisions to row back on climate-conscious policies are also triggering a backlash. While a ban on gas boilers is seen as one that could significantly contribute to meeting climate change targets, it is also politically risky as it could have the effect of tipping moderate voters towards the right. Germany was forced to row back on their support for the plan in the wake of massive government infighting and public outcries. The backlash coincided with a boost in popularity for far-right party AfD. Earlier this month, German Finance Minister Christian Lindner told Politico that stricter energy efficiency rules for buildings could fuel the rise of the far-right, amid growing apathy across Europe over plans to reach net zero. www.gbnews.com/politics/gas-boilers-eu-ban-climate-policiesThe wheels are comming off net zero because it doesn't have public support. |
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Post by jonksy on Sept 25, 2023 13:28:59 GMT
Europe is facing a battle over gas boilers with a ban on the item threatening to cause major rebellions. The EU is considering a ban on the sale of stand-alone fossil-fuel-powered boilers from 2029. But the prospect of a ban has triggered fury among countries across Europe. Meanwhile, decisions to row back on climate-conscious policies are also triggering a backlash. While a ban on gas boilers is seen as one that could significantly contribute to meeting climate change targets, it is also politically risky as it could have the effect of tipping moderate voters towards the right. Germany was forced to row back on their support for the plan in the wake of massive government infighting and public outcries. The backlash coincided with a boost in popularity for far-right party AfD. Earlier this month, German Finance Minister Christian Lindner told Politico that stricter energy efficiency rules for buildings could fuel the rise of the far-right, amid growing apathy across Europe over plans to reach net zero. www.gbnews.com/politics/gas-boilers-eu-ban-climate-policiesThe wheels are comming off net zero because it doesn't have public support. It couldn't happened to a better bunch os selv serving arseholes mate. It kinda tells any one with a modicum of intellegence that nobody wants these fucking heatpumps so they have to then try and make them compulsary FFS. A good product always sells on merit. People are sick and tired of the net zero lie. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Sept 25, 2023 13:37:31 GMT
Net zero maybe a laudable long term aim, the problem is it's being forced on people far too quickly. This obviously breeds resentment and politicians know very well that voters will simply vote for people/parties who are not promoting net zero and forcing them into fuel poverty.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Sept 25, 2023 13:37:47 GMT
It's quite obvious that Net Zero is unworkable for most people.
As for these allegedly "Far Right" parties, what's "Far Right" about them? Because there's absolutely nothing "Far Right" about common sense.
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Post by Red Rackham on Sept 25, 2023 13:49:27 GMT
It's quite obvious that Net Zero is unworkable for most people. As for these allegedly "Far Right" parties, what's "Far Right" about them? Because there's absolutely nothing "Far Right" about common sense. Indeed I've mentioned this before, it seems to me that as far as lefties are concerned, anyone who is not a lefty is 'far right'. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2023 15:24:56 GMT
They are so efficient. Our gas boiler is currently on 1 hour a day. It uses 3 cubic metres of gas a week (33 kWh) at a cost of about £2.50 to keep us in hot water all the time we need it.
And gas is just sitting beneath the earth waiting to be used for our energy requirements. My newish Vaillant boiler is a condensing model and couldn't really be any more efficient.
In the winter it heats the house for £25 a week. What's not to like?
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Post by Bentley on Sept 25, 2023 15:31:26 GMT
Always seems to a waste of time getting cadent to refurbish all the gas pipes to ban them in a few years so this was always in the cards .
The unwary , naive and virtue signallers have been gaslighted to get rid of their gas boilers when in reality the new refurbished gas pipes will be good for mooched and even pure hydrogen. As are a lot of boilers afaik.
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Post by steppenwolf on Sept 26, 2023 7:19:37 GMT
At the moment most of the energy to heat our homes comes from gas (about 70%). The govt's idea is to force people to use electricity (heat pumps). But they haven't even thought about what this will mean for the National Grid, which is struggling at the moment to meet demand. Moving domestic heating and cars onto electricity would virtually quadruple the amount of electricity needed from the National Grid - which would require a huge expansion of the electricity network capacity, and would take many decades and cost tens of billions.
The idea of using hydrogen to replace natural gas is also problematic. The requirement to stop using gas is driven by the perceived need to cut CO2. But burning hydrogen in air produces a lot of nitrogen oxides (because hydrogen burns at such a high temperature) which are very dangerous and are what killed off the diesel. There also seems to be an ideological reluctance to burn hydrogen because it's far less efficient than, say, putting hydrogen through a hydrogen fuel cell and creating electricity - which can be used in heat pumps. You'd also have a very big job of upgrading all the pipes.
And then there's the problem that heat pumps are only suitable for about 40% of UK properties. They also demand very high levels of insulation and much larger radiators. And then there's the problem of people who are off grid. In rural areas most people are using oil or LPG boilers which would be hugely costly to replace.
It's a total shambles and the govt seem to have no interest because they know that they won't be around when the shit hits the fan. But at some point someone has to recognise that there's a problem. Sunak's latest pronouncement of pushing back the ban on petrol/diesel cars to 2035 was a con. All that happened was that between 2030 and 2035 manufacturers would be allowed to sell a diminishing number of petrol/diesel cars (starting at 1 for every 4 pure BEVs they sell and tapering down to zero at 2035). and every petrol/diesel car they sell above this limit will attract a fine of £15k. So basically very few petrol/diesel will be available. So it's basically no change - the cars are banned in 2030.
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Post by patman post on Sept 26, 2023 15:43:09 GMT
Always seems to a waste of time getting cadent to refurbish all the gas pipes to ban them in a few years so this was always in the cards . The unwary , naive and virtue signallers have been gaslighted to get rid of their gas boilers when in reality the new refurbished gas pipes will be good for mooched and even pure hydrogen. As are a lot of boilers afaik. Valid points.
The UK is looking at plans to replace natural gas with hydrogen gas.
If this happens, it will be a gradual process that takes years, rather than something that changes all at once. And that means it shouldn’t be extra hassle or expense for homeowners. In fact, some of the biggest boiler manufacturers in the UK have promised that hydrogen-ready boilers won’t cost any more than a regular gas-powered boiler.
The first step in the hydrogen transition is likely to be introducing a 20% hydrogen blend into the UK mains supply. Most boilers will be able to use this hydrogen blend without any problems. In fact, many new boilers are already labelled ‘hydrogen-blend ready’ ahead of this first move towards hydrogen.
From now to 2050 seems to be thought a reasonable timescale...
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Post by Bentley on Sept 26, 2023 16:14:12 GMT
Always seems to a waste of time getting cadent to refurbish all the gas pipes to ban them in a few years so this was always in the cards . The unwary , naive and virtue signallers have been gaslighted to get rid of their gas boilers when in reality the new refurbished gas pipes will be good for mooched and even pure hydrogen. As are a lot of boilers afaik. Valid points.
The UK is looking at plans to replace natural gas with hydrogen gas.
If this happens, it will be a gradual process that takes years, rather than something that changes all at once. And that means it shouldn’t be extra hassle or expense for homeowners. In fact, some of the biggest boiler manufacturers in the UK have promised that hydrogen-ready boilers won’t cost any more than a regular gas-powered boiler.
The first step in the hydrogen transition is likely to be introducing a 20% hydrogen blend into the UK mains supply. Most boilers will be able to use this hydrogen blend without any problems. In fact, many new boilers are already labelled ‘hydrogen-blend ready’ ahead of this first move towards hydrogen.
From now to 2050 seems to be thought a reasonable timescale...
Indeed afaik my boiler ( two years old ) could cope with full hydrogen but I stand to be corrected . Ive also replaced my internal gas pipe with copper . The steel pipes corrode with hydrogen. As you say , the full hydrogen transfer will not happen soon ,so I’m not worried if the gas boiler isn’t full hydrogen compliant . |
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Post by steppenwolf on Sept 27, 2023 7:50:13 GMT
Always seems to a waste of time getting cadent to refurbish all the gas pipes to ban them in a few years so this was always in the cards . The unwary , naive and virtue signallers have been gaslighted to get rid of their gas boilers when in reality the new refurbished gas pipes will be good for mooched and even pure hydrogen. As are a lot of boilers afaik. Valid points.
The UK is looking at plans to replace natural gas with hydrogen gas.
If this happens, it will be a gradual process that takes years, rather than something that changes all at once. And that means it shouldn’t be extra hassle or expense for homeowners. In fact, some of the biggest boiler manufacturers in the UK have promised that hydrogen-ready boilers won’t cost any more than a regular gas-powered boiler.
The first step in the hydrogen transition is likely to be introducing a 20% hydrogen blend into the UK mains supply. Most boilers will be able to use this hydrogen blend without any problems. In fact, many new boilers are already labelled ‘hydrogen-blend ready’ ahead of this first move towards hydrogen.
From now to 2050 seems to be thought a reasonable timescale...
I notice that your BG link says that "The UK government is looking at plans to replace natural gas with hydrogen gas – because it’s much more environmentally friendly". Unfortunately it's not. It doesn't produce CO2, of course, but because of the high temperature at which it burns in air it produces large amounts of NOX - which is what killed off the diesel. It can be removed using reduction catalytic converters (which require an ammonia tank) but I doubt if this would be practical for a boiler. And it produces far more NO2 than a diesel engine - and remember that NO2 is heavier than CO2 and stays around for a long time (it's not cleaned up by plants) and it's a deadly poison. It also doesn't make much sense from an energy efficiency point of view. It takes a lot of electricity to produce green hydrogen and you only get about 35% of that energy back when you burn it. Yet if you put that electricity through a heat pump you can get 3 times the energy in the electricity back from the environment. Failing that it would also be more efficient to put the hydrogen through a hydrogen fuel cell when you get about 50% efficiency - and use the electricity to power radiators. Burning hydrogen makes no sense whatsoever. Your link also says that the govt was looking at hydrogen replacing natural gas. Is it? Possibly. But the govt are scientifically illiterate. |
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Post by patman post on Sept 27, 2023 12:20:07 GMT
Valid points.
The UK is looking at plans to replace natural gas with hydrogen gas.
If this happens, it will be a gradual process that takes years, rather than something that changes all at once. And that means it shouldn’t be extra hassle or expense for homeowners. In fact, some of the biggest boiler manufacturers in the UK have promised that hydrogen-ready boilers won’t cost any more than a regular gas-powered boiler.
The first step in the hydrogen transition is likely to be introducing a 20% hydrogen blend into the UK mains supply. Most boilers will be able to use this hydrogen blend without any problems. In fact, many new boilers are already labelled ‘hydrogen-blend ready’ ahead of this first move towards hydrogen.
From now to 2050 seems to be thought a reasonable timescale...
I notice that your BG link says that "The UK government is looking at plans to replace natural gas with hydrogen gas – because it’s much more environmentally friendly". Unfortunately it's not. It doesn't produce CO2, of course, but because of the high temperature at which it burns in air it produces large amounts of NOX - which is what killed off the diesel. It can be removed using reduction catalytic converters (which require an ammonia tank) but I doubt if this would be practical for a boiler. And it produces far more NO2 than a diesel engine - and remember that NO2 is heavier than CO2 and stays around for a long time (it's not cleaned up by plants) and it's a deadly poison. It also doesn't make much sense from an energy efficiency point of view. It takes a lot of electricity to produce green hydrogen and you only get about 35% of that energy back when you burn it. Yet if you put that electricity through a heat pump you can get 3 times the energy in the electricity back from the environment. Failing that it would also be more efficient to put the hydrogen through a hydrogen fuel cell when you get about 50% efficiency - and use the electricity to power radiators. Burning hydrogen makes no sense whatsoever. Your link also says that the govt was looking at hydrogen replacing natural gas. Is it? Possibly. But the govt are scientifically illiterate. What you say may be true, but as manufacturers are actually making boilers suitable for hydrogen, I think (and from what I’ve read elsewhere) plans to use hydrogen are more advanced than you believe. As for using hydrogen for fuel cells and to fuel internal combustion engines, I suggest the following Cummins article is informative… www.cummins.com/news/2022/01/27/hydrogen-internal-combustion-engines-and-hydrogen-fuel-cells |
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Post by steppenwolf on Sept 27, 2023 13:00:10 GMT
Sorry but I don't need to read some bollocks from "cummins" whoever they are about how hydrogen can be used as an energy source. The facts are very simple - and I've explained them to you already.
I'm well aware that trials are going on to use part hydrogen/ part natural gas in boilers. I'm also well aware that the govt spent a lot of money encouraging motorists to buy diesel cars (because they generate slightly less CO2 than petrol), but they found that it made all of our major cities in breach of pollution regulations - and the pollution is deadly NO2. So the govt are making the same mistake again - what a surprise. Unfortunately burning hydrogen in air produces even more pollution than a diesel engine. Since domestic heating accounts for far more energy than cars the polltion that hydrogen boiler produce will be far more than diesel engines..
The science is pretty simple Patman. Burning hydrogen generates a lot long lasting pollution and generates far less energy than it cost to produce. That's why it makes no sense. Going all-electric (for heating and cars) actually DOES make sense but the amount of upgrading to the National Grid required will take decades and cost hundreds of billions - it'll make HS2 seem cheap.
You shouldn't be so naive as to be fooled by these "dead cats" that the govt chucks on the table every now and then to make people think they're doing something.
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Post by patman post on Sept 27, 2023 13:24:18 GMT
Sorry but I don't need to read some bollocks from "cummins" whoever they are about how hydrogen can be used as an energy source. The facts are very simple - and I've explained them to you already. I'm well aware that trials are going on to use part hydrogen/ part natural gas in boilers. I'm also well aware that the govt spent a lot of money encouraging motorists to buy diesel cars (because they generate slightly less CO2 than petrol), but they found that it made all of our major cities in breach of pollution regulations - and the pollution is deadly NO2. So the govt are making the same mistake again - what a surprise. Unfortunately burning hydrogen in air produces even more pollution than a diesel engine. Since domestic heating accounts for far more energy than cars the polltion that hydrogen boiler produce will be far more than diesel engines.. The science is pretty simple Patman. Burning hydrogen generates a lot long lasting pollution and generates far less energy than it cost to produce. That's why it makes no sense. Going all-electric (for heating and cars) actually DOES make sense but the amount of upgrading to the National Grid required will take decades and cost hundreds of billions - it'll make HS2 seem cheap. You shouldn't be so naive as to be fooled by these "dead cats" that the govt chucks on the table every now and then to make people think they're doing something. I can assure you that I’m less likely to be fooled by the rants of the mistakenly obsessed (or lobbyists), than I am to be informed by the activities and views of leading developers in the technologies that are most affected by governments’ plans… |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2023 14:22:53 GMT
In flame of pure hydrogen burning in air, the hydrogen (H2) reacts with oxygen (O2) to form water (H2O) with the release of energy. In atmospheric air rather than pure oxygen, hydrogen combustion may yield a small amount of nitrogen oxides with the water vapor.
WATER is the result of burning hydrogen in air.
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