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Post by Vinny on Sept 15, 2023 16:28:41 GMT
They're always going on about the wealthiest not paying their fair share, if they can prove their case, succeed in raising taxes on them, and it works, then they've found something they couldn't achieve before.
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 15, 2023 17:15:42 GMT
Sid, if Labour want to get back in, they need to learn from their own mistakes rather than bitch and whine about the Tories. If they want to spend money on the NHS, fine, but do not add to long term public debt in order to do so. Run a surplus. Pay down the national debt and build up surpluses so that when the next recession comes we can weather the storm.That would need some recognition of the economic cycle - Labour convinced themselves they had abolished it.
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Post by zanygame on Sept 15, 2023 17:24:45 GMT
They're always going on about the wealthiest not paying their fair share, if they can prove their case, succeed in raising taxes on them, and it works, then they've found something they couldn't achieve before. I think its a case of US recognising the need rather than government. Public opinion is very import to politicians. But at this time any conversation on the subject seems impossible.
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Post by zanygame on Sept 15, 2023 17:25:45 GMT
Sid, if Labour want to get back in, they need to learn from their own mistakes rather than bitch and whine about the Tories. If they want to spend money on the NHS, fine, but do not add to long term public debt in order to do so. Run a surplus. Pay down the national debt and build up surpluses so that when the next recession comes we can weather the storm.That would need some recognition of the economic cycle - Labour convinced themselves they had abolished it. No they abolished boom bust and replaced it with small ups and downs.
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Post by Vinny on Sept 15, 2023 17:29:01 GMT
No, they didn't.
Ken Clarke is the man who promised no return to boom and bust, Gordon Brown then squandered the legacy he'd inherited and brought it back.
From 1997 to 2001 Gordon followed the Ken Clarke plan. From 2001 onwards he didn't, and that's where his biggest economic blunder was.
His biggest political blunder was not holding a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 15, 2023 17:36:14 GMT
That would need some recognition of the economic cycle - Labour convinced themselves they had abolished it. No they abolished boom bust and replaced it with small ups and downs. The financial crash was a small up and down?
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Post by Fairsociety on Sept 15, 2023 17:38:57 GMT
Sid, if Labour want to get back in, they need to learn from their own mistakes rather than bitch and whine about the Tories. If they want to spend money on the NHS, fine, but do not add to long term public debt in order to do so. Run a surplus. Pay down the national debt and build up surpluses so that when the next recession comes we can weather the storm. If it's a forgone conclusion Labour are going to win the next GE we should play them at their own game.
Make sure when they take over there is nothing left for them to squander, leave the cupboards bare.
That's their party piece, bankrupt the country then leave it for the Tories to clear up the mess.
After all their mindset is just the same, they would rather Brexit fail and the UK fails miserably than admit Brexit was a success and accept it.
We can all have a lefty double standard hypocrisy if we put our minds to it.
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Post by Vinny on Sept 15, 2023 18:16:14 GMT
Yes, Labour will win the next election, but I don't think they've learned a thing, and if they want to convincingly win the one after it, they need to learn from past mistakes sharpish, or they're doomed to repeat their mistakes.
They have after all got he man who did more than anyone else on the front bench, to lose them the last election. Immediately after his central role in causing their defeat, this arrogant man stepped forward as leader.
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Post by zanygame on Sept 15, 2023 19:40:40 GMT
No, they didn't. Ken Clarke is the man who promised no return to boom and bust, Gordon Brown then squandered the legacy he'd inherited and brought it back. From 1997 to 2001 Gordon followed the Ken Clarke plan. From 2001 onwards he didn't, and that's where his biggest economic blunder was. His biggest political blunder was not holding a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I disagree. Handing control of inflation over to the BofE got rid of boom bust right up until the American banks crash the whole worlds economy. Its funny how before Blair took over and government controlled them it was necessary to raise interest rates to 15 or 16% to control inflation, but when the BofE had control it only took interest rates of 4 or 5% movements of 1/2% did the job. I wonder who gets all that money when interest rates rocket.
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Post by Orac on Sept 15, 2023 20:04:14 GMT
It's called 'the business cycle" and it hasn't remotely stopped.
We have had a heavily manipulated (false) economy for the last couple of decades, so the next correction is likely to be quite spectacular and blow away any further can kicking we may attempt.
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Post by Vinny on Sept 15, 2023 20:13:48 GMT
You're missing something. Bank regulation, was virtually none existent under Labour. Payday loan companies with absurdly high interest rates above 1000%, like Wonga were founded in the third term of Labour. Wonga being founded in 2006. Those predatory companies were regulated out of existence by the Tories. Gordon Brown's lax regulatory environment allowed them into existence. Gordon Brown's killing of most savings options replacing decent TESSAs and PEPs with crappy ISAs as well as their mass immigration of seasonal worker policies caused a rental market inflated house price boom which would have gone bust even if the USA hadn't. It was unsustainable. You cannot get infinite growth from finite resources. Gordon Brown's sell off of gold whilst prices were at rock bottom ruined our reserves and savings for a rainy day. Gordon Brown's fiscal incompetence is without question. Everyone except extremist loonies can see his mistakes for what they were. If Labour want to regain the trust of the nation they're going to have to do something for savers. Tax exempt savings accounts with interest rates of 8% to 10% and upper limits of £30k. Normal savings accounts with interest rates of up to 12% but taxed, with no upper limit. If banks can charge 25% on loans they can provide decent interest rates on savings and they should be made to. And you know what happens in a recession when Joe Public isn't crippled with debt, and has decent savings? The recession is nowhere near as bad! And apply the same philosphy to the nation's coffers. Pay down the national debt. Stop spending on unnecessary things like fertility treatments on the NHS (promote adoption instead), stop providing free gender reassingment surgeries, provide counselling instead. Stop promoting absurdities in schools. Women do not have penises. When Labour takes on board this sort of thing, Labour will be electable. Oh, and put short barreled cartridge hand guns with a loading gate and push rod extractor back on to Section 1. You can see from this video, how slow it is to reload the things. Allowing someone to own ONE of those, is not going to cause another Dunblane. Also bear in mind this is totally legal on a Section 1 permit: It can be reloaded by speed loader: Labour were purveyors of knee jerk reactionary policies, economic incompetence, social idiocy and legal absurdities. That gun, with the coat hanger bit on the back, typifies everything mad about them. Every day some poor sod in London is stabbed because the Mayor there stopped stop and search. ULEZ is a joke. They've got to grow up.
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Post by see2 on Sept 20, 2023 21:04:01 GMT
Sid, if Labour want to get back in, they need to learn from their own mistakes rather than bitch and whine about the Tories. If they want to spend money on the NHS, fine, but do not add to long term public debt in order to do so. Run a surplus. Pay down the national debt and build up surpluses so that when the next recession comes we can weather the storm.That would need some recognition of the economic cycle - Labour convinced themselves they had abolished it. No they didn't, IIRC they only broke it for a very short period just once.
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 20, 2023 21:20:04 GMT
That would need some recognition of the economic cycle - Labour convinced themselves they had abolished it. No they didn't, IIRC they only broke it for a very short period just once. If they hadn't convinced themselves they had abolished the economic cycle they wouldnt have expanded borrowing at precisely the wrong point in the cycle. Keynes was spinning in his grave..
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Post by see2 on Sept 20, 2023 21:25:33 GMT
No, they didn't. Ken Clarke is the man who promised no return to boom and bust, Gordon Brown then squandered the legacy he'd inherited and brought it back. From 1997 to 2001 Gordon followed the Ken Clarke plan. From 2001 onwards he didn't, and that's where his biggest economic blunder was. His biggest political blunder was not holding a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Please stop posting your rubbish about Boom and Bust. Gordon Brown said he would stop government use of Boom and Bust (i.e. inflation followed by deflation) to control the economy and explained how he would, AND DID do it . It was Brown that gave the control of inflation to the Bank of England in 1997 thereby removing the ability of any government introducing 15% interest rate (etc. 1990) as done by the Tory government. __Until 1997, the government set interest rates and monetary policy. But, it was felt that the government might make bad decisions because they would be influenced by short-term political pressures (as had previously been done). Therefore, BROWN decided to give the Bank of England independent control in order to help stabilise the economy.__ See Hansard 1997. Criticise where criticism is due, but give credit where credit is due. Otherwise readers might think you live in your own little world.
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Post by see2 on Sept 20, 2023 21:28:20 GMT
No they didn't, IIRC they only broke it for a very short period just once. If they hadn't convinced themselves they had abolished the economic cycle they wouldnt have expanded borrowing at precisely the wrong point in the cycle. Keynes was spinning in his grave.. Can you quote Brown claiming he had abolished the economic cycle?
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