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Post by Pacifico on Sept 14, 2023 10:32:15 GMT
The origions of this discussion are based on your false statement that "the Blair government made massive improvements to the NHS through excessive borrowing". A statement which is NOT TRUE PFI is a form of borrowing - it simply shifts the costs to the Private sector balance sheet. That PFI inflates those costs and makes it an even worse deal for the taxpayer is unarguable. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2023 10:44:29 GMT
I do believe we are going around in circles
As previously pointed out, PFI built SOME new hospitals, but PFI was not responsible for making huge improvements to the NHS, namely reducing waiting lists, waiting times, increasing the numbers of medical procedures carried out, increasing the numbers of nurses and doctors and reducing deaths from cancer and heart disease.
This was all done without PFI and without excessive borrowing
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Post by jonksy on Sept 14, 2023 11:23:34 GMT
I do believe we are going around in circles As previously pointed out, PFI built SOME new hospitals, but PFI was not responsible for making huge improvements to the NHS, namely reducing waiting lists, waiting times, increasing the numbers of medical procedures carried out, increasing the numbers of nurses and doctors and reducing deaths from cancer and heart disease. This was all done without PFI and without excessive borrowing Blair built hospitals which are dangerous no if buts or ands. |
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 14, 2023 13:34:49 GMT
I do believe we are going around in circles As previously pointed out, PFI built SOME new hospitals, but PFI was not responsible for making huge improvements to the NHS, namely reducing waiting lists, waiting times, increasing the numbers of medical procedures carried out, increasing the numbers of nurses and doctors and reducing deaths from cancer and heart disease. This was all done without PFI and without excessive borrowing The whole point of PFI was to shift the borrowing off the Governments Balance sheet so that they could spend those funds on something else. All those Billions of Pounds of projects that Labour launched under PFI, if those had been funded by Central Government in the normal way that governments before and after did, would either have cut spending in other areas or increase borrowing. Face it Sid - you were sold a pup if you believe that borrowing was not involved.  |
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Post by Vinny on Sept 15, 2023 6:04:03 GMT
Exactly. Labour borrowed like maniacs. There was no preparation in case of recession, it was all short term spend spend spend.
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Post by zanygame on Sept 15, 2023 6:29:09 GMT
Exactly. Labour borrowed like maniacs. There was no preparation in case of recession, it was all short term spend spend spend. Thank goodness the Tories were prepared for Covid. But in any case no one will mention the elephant in the room. How do we provide the health care we expect without raising taxes or borrowing more. The answer isn't "We have very high tax already" That might be true but it doesn't answer the question above. |
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 15, 2023 6:40:28 GMT
Exactly. Labour borrowed like maniacs. There was no preparation in case of recession, it was all short term spend spend spend. Thank goodness the Tories were prepared for Covid. But in any case no one will mention the elephant in the room. How do we provide the health care we expect without raising taxes or borrowing more. The answer isn't "We have very high tax already" That might be true but it doesn't answer the question above. The answer is to look at other countries who have better outcomes and see what they are doing... |
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Post by zanygame on Sept 15, 2023 7:06:12 GMT
Thank goodness the Tories were prepared for Covid. But in any case no one will mention the elephant in the room. How do we provide the health care we expect without raising taxes or borrowing more. The answer isn't "We have very high tax already" That might be true but it doesn't answer the question above. The answer is to look at other countries who have better outcomes and see what they are doing... Yes I have. They charge more, remember I pointed that out to you. There is no magic bullet that provides modern health care for less money. |
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 15, 2023 7:21:49 GMT
The answer is to look at other countries who have better outcomes and see what they are doing... Yes I have. They charge more, remember I pointed that out to you. There is no magic bullet that provides modern health care for less money. We are already spending more and getting worse - spending a bit more is not going to suddenly transform the situation...  |
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Post by zanygame on Sept 15, 2023 7:30:56 GMT
Yes I have. They charge more, remember I pointed that out to you. There is no magic bullet that provides modern health care for less money. We are already spending more and getting worse - spending a bit more is not going to suddenly transform the situation... No we're not. |
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Post by thomas on Sept 15, 2023 7:36:31 GMT
The answer is to look at other countries who have better outcomes and see what they are doing... Yes I have. They charge more, remember I pointed that out to you. There is no magic bullet that provides modern health care for less money. this is vague nonsense zany. What do you mean they charge more? Is this some vague implication you want more taxes put into the nhs? Good luck with that?
The french have arguably the most consistently best health service in the entire world according to yearly reports by the WHO. They , like most european countires , rely on a part private , part nhs type service , which isnt fully funded by taxing the plebs to death , or fully free at the point of use.
Is this the system that the lamentable starmer is proposing ?
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 15, 2023 7:43:09 GMT
We are already spending more and getting worse - spending a bit more is not going to suddenly transform the situation... No we're not. Health spending has gone through the roof and we have more people on waiting lists than ever before. If the only answer is to chuck a bit more money at it then I feel you are going to be mightily disappointed.. |
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Post by zanygame on Sept 15, 2023 7:46:08 GMT
Yes I have. They charge more, remember I pointed that out to you. There is no magic bullet that provides modern health care for less money. this is vague nonsense zany. What do you mean they charge more? Is this some vague implication you want more taxes put into the nhs? Good luck with that?
The french have arguably the most consistently best health service in the entire world according to yearly reports by the WHO. They , like most european countires , rely on a part private , part nhs type service , which isnt fully funded by taxing the plebs to death , or fully free at the point of use.
Is this the system that the lamentable starmer is proposing ?
It sounds vague because you were not party to my previous conversations with Pacifico on this subject, where I gave figures showing nearly every EU country and the US all spend a higher percentage of GDP and tax on health care. I was not prepared to do it all again just so's he can leave it for a bit and reset. For you I would pose the original question. How do we provide the heatlhcare we expect in modern UK without either raising taxes or borrowing more. For clarity, we do not have the same available treatments now as we had even 10 years ago. And 55% of the NHS budget is spent on those over 80 years old. |
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Post by zanygame on Sept 15, 2023 7:46:54 GMT
Health spending has gone through the roof and we have more people on waiting lists than ever before. If the only answer is to chuck a bit more money at it then I feel you are going to be mightily disappointed.. Then point out a sensible answer not dependent on lies. |
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Post by sheepy on Sept 15, 2023 7:50:29 GMT
this is vague nonsense zany. What do you mean they charge more? Is this some vague implication you want more taxes put into the nhs? Good luck with that?
The french have arguably the most consistently best health service in the entire world according to yearly reports by the WHO. They , like most european countires , rely on a part private , part nhs type service , which isnt fully funded by taxing the plebs to death , or fully free at the point of use.
Is this the system that the lamentable starmer is proposing ?
It sounds vague because you were not party to my previous conversations with Pacifico on this subject, where I gave figures showing nearly every EU country and the US all spend a higher percentage of GDP and tax on health care. I was not prepared to do it all again just so's he can leave it for a bit and reset. For you I would pose the original question. How do we provide the heatlhcare we expect in modern UK without either raising taxes or borrowing more. For clarity, we do not have the same available treatments now as we had even 10 years ago. And 55% of the NHS budget is spent on those over 80 years old. Exactly what percentage is spent on wages for the worlds 5th largest employer? as it seems none of them are getting paid enough in this age of AI you keep telling has reduced jobs and paid employment as a better choice Einstein. |
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