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Post by see2 on Sept 8, 2023 12:37:35 GMT
But there is the foolishness of exacerbating climate change by the pouring out of greenhouse gasses. I think that is the point that we do not know if it is foolishness or not and if it is foolish what we do is dwarfed to insignificance by Asia. It is obvious foolishness to exacerbate global worming by pouring out greenhouse gasses. There is no excuse for advanced countries not to make the effort to go green, and China, despite it use of coal and oil is one of the top countries for producing green energy. Asian countries, along with Middle East countries, are focusing much of their time on producing green energy. Green energy which is on the increase is nowhere near enough to cancel out oil and coal use, does that mean countries should just sit back and be complete victims?
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Post by sandypine on Sept 8, 2023 13:38:37 GMT
I think that is the point that we do not know if it is foolishness or not and if it is foolish what we do is dwarfed to insignificance by Asia. It is obvious foolishness to exacerbate global worming by pouring out greenhouse gasses. There is no excuse for advanced countries not to make the effort to go green, and China, despite it use of coal and oil is one of the top countries for producing green energy. Asian countries, along with Middle East countries, are focusing much of their time on producing green energy. Green energy which is on the increase is nowhere near enough to cancel out oil and coal use, does that mean countries should just sit back and be complete victims? We are below China, and many other countries in per capita emissions yet we are still expected to do more. We have done our bit to our eternal cost based on some pretty dodgy science and some base assumptions and wobbly stats and models.
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Post by Steve on Sept 8, 2023 23:18:10 GMT
It is obvious foolishness to exacerbate global worming by pouring out greenhouse gasses. There is no excuse for advanced countries not to make the effort to go green, and China, despite it use of coal and oil is one of the top countries for producing green energy. Asian countries, along with Middle East countries, are focusing much of their time on producing green energy. Green energy which is on the increase is nowhere near enough to cancel out oil and coal use, does that mean countries should just sit back and be complete victims? We are below China, and many other countries in per capita emissions yet we are still expected to do more. We have done our bit to our eternal cost based on some pretty dodgy science and some base assumptions and wobbly stats and models. Just because the science is unpopular doesn't make it 'dodgy' As for what is essentially your 'the man down the road burgles 3 houses a week so it's OK for me to burgle 2' philosophy have you really thought it through
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Post by sandypine on Sept 9, 2023 8:13:39 GMT
We are below China, and many other countries in per capita emissions yet we are still expected to do more. We have done our bit to our eternal cost based on some pretty dodgy science and some base assumptions and wobbly stats and models. Just because the science is unpopular doesn't make it 'dodgy' As for what is essentially your 'the man down the road burgles 3 houses a week so it's OK for me to burgle 2' philosophy have you really thought it through The problem is 'the science' is backed up by propaganda that is both blatant and insidious. The wild fires overall are no greater than any other year especially in North America where the acreage burnt in the thirties was many times greater than this year, the temperatures are no greater anywhere than we have had in the past however local records are broken which is not an unusual event in most years, the cities are experiencing higher temperatures which is not surprising given the greater areas of concrete, glass and brick and the excess heat generated by buildings as air conditioning works at full blast, the weather charts are colour coded to portray red, deep red and blacks when in the past the same temperatures would have appeared as rather insipid yellows and light orange, the extreme weather events are not increasing by any official measure, the sea levels are not rising at catastrophic rates, floods are not becoming worse. It is all grist to the mill to create a crisis as opposed to raise a concern. Your analogy presupposes that the use of fuel is wrong, which it is not. You may have a case to indicate the excessive use of fuel is wrong in which case we are angels and if individuals are expected to be restrained in their fuel use that would apply in equal measure to every individual including all the private jets lined up at the G20. Broadly we are being taken for mugs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2023 10:04:15 GMT
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Post by Steve on Sept 9, 2023 11:17:27 GMT
And that has been a huge problem, worse governments here and there made it very clear that if researchers wanted their projects funded, it would at the least be a very good idea to make them on lines likely to back their 'oh look we can make our taxes for pet projects look angelic' plans. It was in effect bribery. Some should be hanging their heads in shame, some might even be guilty of misconduct in public office. But it would be equally as wrong to conclude from those failings that the MMGW theory is false. The planet is warmer, it is a credible (if unproven) theory and it's folly to just disregard what could be a huge risk for billions of people.
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Post by sandypine on Sept 9, 2023 13:54:54 GMT
And that has been a huge problem, worse governments here and there made it very clear that if researchers wanted their projects funded, it would at the least be a very good idea to make them on lines likely to back their 'oh look we can make our taxes for pet projects look angelic' plans. It was in effect bribery. Some should be hanging their heads in shame, some might even be guilty of misconduct in public office. But it would be equally as wrong to conclude from those failings that the MMGW theory is false. The planet is warmer, it is a credible (if unproven) theory and it's folly to just disregard what could be a huge risk for billions of people. No one as far as I am aware has said disregard it. What has been said is the process we are involved in is moving too rapidly and too harshly for most of the population. The fact that many lies can be found in the narrative means that people are now suspect of both what is happening, what is being said and why.
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Post by Steve on Sept 9, 2023 14:20:19 GMT
Well that raises the question of what is too rapidly and too harshly? No one should just discount the economic risks of doing do but I'd also say that limiting ourselves in life to only doing what no one minds doing is in most circumstances to act far too slow. There's no low risk way forward here. And like it or no no way of ignoring that we're running out of politically/economically affordable carbon to burn so a crunch is coming.
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Post by sandypine on Sept 9, 2023 16:57:13 GMT
Well that raises the question of what is too rapidly and too harshly? No one should just discount the economic risks of doing do but I'd also say that limiting ourselves in life to only doing what no one minds doing is in most circumstances to act far too slow. There's no low risk way forward here. And like it or no no way of ignoring that we're running out of politically/economically affordable carbon to burn so a crunch is coming. Most people seem to think it is too rapid and too harsh. That is borne out as far as many people are concerned by the overt propaganda being disseminated to the public and of course how it is down to everyone else to meet carbon control and not the 'elite' no matter how you define them.
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Post by see2 on Sept 9, 2023 18:40:54 GMT
It is obvious foolishness to exacerbate global worming by pouring out greenhouse gasses. There is no excuse for advanced countries not to make the effort to go green, and China, despite it use of coal and oil is one of the top countries for producing green energy. Asian countries, along with Middle East countries, are focusing much of their time on producing green energy. Green energy which is on the increase is nowhere near enough to cancel out oil and coal use, does that mean countries should just sit back and be complete victims? We are below China, and many other countries in per capita emissions yet we are still expected to do more. We have done our bit to our eternal cost based on some pretty dodgy science and some base assumptions and wobbly stats and models. You appear to completely miss the single obvious point which is that mankind should be doing their best to 'go green'. That not all countries can go completely green at this point in time is irrelevant, that most, perhaps all countries, are increasingly going green is the right thing to do in terms of looking after the planet and our future health, along with in terms of doing what we can, or what countries feel that they can do to reduce mankind's exacerbation of climate change.
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Post by Steve on Sept 9, 2023 22:28:24 GMT
Well that raises the question of what is too rapidly and too harshly? No one should just discount the economic risks of doing do but I'd also say that limiting ourselves in life to only doing what no one minds doing is in most circumstances to act far too slow. There's no low risk way forward here. And like it or no no way of ignoring that we're running out of politically/economically affordable carbon to burn so a crunch is coming. Most people seem to think it is too rapid and too harsh. That is borne out as far as many people are concerned by the overt propaganda being disseminated to the public and of course how it is down to everyone else to meet carbon control and not the 'elite' no matter how you define them. You just made that up out of thin air in the hope it might be true. Well it isn't Published just lust last month docs.cdn.yougov.com/li3arml6jo/TheTimes_NetZero_230726.pdf'Currently the Government is aiming to reduce Britain's carbon emissions to Net Zero by 2050. Do you support or oppose this aim?
Total Support: 71%
Total Oppose 20%'
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2023 9:14:46 GMT
I wonder if they support or oppose the astronomical cost. All for the theoretical "benefit" of being a degree cooler.
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Post by see2 on Sept 10, 2023 9:57:52 GMT
Well that raises the question of what is too rapidly and too harshly? No one should just discount the economic risks of doing do but I'd also say that limiting ourselves in life to only doing what no one minds doing is in most circumstances to act far too slow. There's no low risk way forward here. And like it or no no way of ignoring that we're running out of politically/economically affordable carbon to burn so a crunch is coming. Most people seem to think it is too rapid and too harsh. That is borne out as far as many people are concerned by the overt propaganda being disseminated to the public and of course how it is down to everyone else to meet carbon control and not the 'elite' no matter how you define them. Who excludes the "elite"? The moan these days appears to be that we should be using more coal, that would be bad for human health and bad for the planet and would need the opening of new coal mines and new coal powered power stations. An expensive dive into the wrong direction. IMO green energy will gradually become cheaper as improved generators come on the scene along with new ideas. I bet todays Wind powered generators are more efficient than those of 20 years ago.
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Post by see2 on Sept 10, 2023 10:02:28 GMT
I wonder if they support or oppose the astronomical cost. All for the theoretical "benefit" of being a degree cooler. One could argue that the cost of the alternative source of energy, presumably coal (plus the damage to health) should be subtracted from your "astronomical cost".
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Post by ALAIN DELON on Sept 10, 2023 11:52:43 GMT
It is obvious foolishness to exacerbate global worming by pouring out greenhouse gasses. There is no excuse for advanced countries not to make the effort to go green, and China, despite it use of coal and oil is one of the top countries for producing green energy. Asian countries, along with Middle East countries, are focusing much of their time on producing green energy. Green energy which is on the increase is nowhere near enough to cancel out oil and coal use, does that mean countries should just sit back and be complete victims? We are below China, and many other countries in per capita emissions yet we are still expected to do more. We have done our bit to our eternal cost based on some pretty dodgy science and some base assumptions and wobbly stats and models. And here I thought the government had missed all their own targets. Oh well.
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