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Post by thomas on Aug 20, 2023 12:46:59 GMT
Britishness 'more fragile' after Brexit and death of Queen Elizabeth
THE concept of Britishness has becoming increasingly fragile after Brexit and the death of Queen Elizabeth II and the prospect of the UK remaining united is “pretty poor”, according to an academic.
Dr Nick Whittaker, who specialises in international relations and geopolitics at the University of Sussex, said historians and scholars have suggested that the Empire was the “glue” that held the UK together.
He said the country’s already “fragile” identity following the collapse of British rule has become even more so in the wake of Brexit and the death of Queen Elizabeth II.
READ MORE: Imperial expert says 'Britain and Britishness' are collapsing
The UK Tory government has also shown a “pretty cavalier” attitude towards the union, despite claiming to prioritise it, and the long-term prospects of the UK staying united are “pretty poor”, he argued.
Whittaker, subject lead in social sciences and law at the University of Sussex, has examined the question of how Britain’s island identity has shaped its politics in a newly published book ‘Geopolitics and Identity in British Foreign Policy Discourse: the Island Race’.
He said the “imperial island identity” has long relied on the idea of Britain being a place apart from Europe, that enjoyed mobility and had global links.
But he said the growth of the SNP at Westminster had resulted in a different vision being put forward.
“I analysed a series of parliamentary debates around Brexit and around this idea of global Britain, and what I found was that SNP members of the Westminster parliament were really articulating this quite different geopolitical vision,” he said.
“So they were very much emphasising how in terms of identity, in terms of outlook, in terms of values, Scotland is thoroughly European rather than being British.
“Part of how they were doing this was the emphasis that Scotland exists in the North Atlantic space, which can include the Arctic and Scandinavia and so on. Scotland is Celtic, rather than Scotland being British.
So these articulations of Scottish identity, these geopolitical articulations are a real challenge to this dominant island identity which is mostly a Tory identity - but the Labour party being a unionist party very much conforms to some of these trappings historically as well.”
Whittaker said the SNP’s vision was a “profound challenge” to a consensus around British island identify which had been around for at least “many, many” decades.
He said: “I think that does have a real power and it has implications that goes beyond just Scottish independence.
“Because what it does is it exposes that the links between Britishness and Empire are so profound I don’t think that we as British people have fully begun to reckon with that in its totality.
“The fact the Empire is long gone, the fact that we have Brexit, the fact in Northern Ireland I think there is going to be border poll within the next decade or so, the fact that all these things are happening really shows the fragility of Britishness without the Empire."
He added: “Britishnesss is pretty fragile and without the Empire and without Queen Elizabeth II as well – that I think is a bit of a coincidence, but a really profound one, the fact she has passed away in the time period she has."
Whittaker also argued the long-term prospects for the UK staying united are “pretty poor”, including that it was not unreasonable to expect for support for Plaid Cymru to grow incrementally in Wales.
He said despite the Conservatives claiming to be the most proudly Unionist party, in reality it has been “pretty cavalier” about the Union.
“They have this public persona almost of the Union is the most important thing, we are a UK party, Britishness is what is really important,” he said.
“But the insouciance with which they have treated particularly Northern Ireland is revelatory of a deeper attitude which is actually that these Westminster parties – although Labour have a bit more of a cosmopolitan attitude in general.
"But particularly the Conservatives are an English party, they are a party of English nationalism.”
READ MORE: Break-up of Britain conference to salute Tom Nairn set for Edinburgh
Whittaker said while the “high watermark” for having another independence referendum appeared to have passed in Scotland, he would not be surprised it if came back.
He said the emergence of younger generations who want to get back into the EU would be a difficult issue for politicians from Unionist parties to ignore.
“I think constituencies for rejoining the EU are going to emerge all across the UK, but I think it is a far easier sell in Scotland than it is in England,” he said.
“And there is the massive economic pressures and cost of living and so on.
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Post by sheepy on Aug 20, 2023 13:00:36 GMT
Just another globalist they pop up everywhere.
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Post by Ripley on Aug 20, 2023 14:16:40 GMT
Britishness 'more fragile' after Brexit and death of Queen Elizabeth
THE concept of Britishness has becoming increasingly fragile after Brexit and the death of Queen Elizabeth II and the prospect of the UK remaining united is “pretty poor”, according to an academic.
Dr Nick Whittaker, who specialises in international relations and geopolitics at the University of Sussex, said historians and scholars have suggested that the Empire was the “glue” that held the UK together.
He said the country’s already “fragile” identity following the collapse of British rule has become even more so in the wake of Brexit and the death of Queen Elizabeth II.
READ MORE: Imperial expert says 'Britain and Britishness' are collapsing
The UK Tory government has also shown a “pretty cavalier” attitude towards the union, despite claiming to prioritise it, and the long-term prospects of the UK staying united are “pretty poor”, he argued.
Whittaker, subject lead in social sciences and law at the University of Sussex, has examined the question of how Britain’s island identity has shaped its politics in a newly published book ‘Geopolitics and Identity in British Foreign Policy Discourse: the Island Race’.
He said the “imperial island identity” has long relied on the idea of Britain being a place apart from Europe, that enjoyed mobility and had global links.
But he said the growth of the SNP at Westminster had resulted in a different vision being put forward.
“I analysed a series of parliamentary debates around Brexit and around this idea of global Britain, and what I found was that SNP members of the Westminster parliament were really articulating this quite different geopolitical vision,” he said.
“So they were very much emphasising how in terms of identity, in terms of outlook, in terms of values, Scotland is thoroughly European rather than being British.
“Part of how they were doing this was the emphasis that Scotland exists in the North Atlantic space, which can include the Arctic and Scandinavia and so on. Scotland is Celtic, rather than Scotland being British.
So these articulations of Scottish identity, these geopolitical articulations are a real challenge to this dominant island identity which is mostly a Tory identity - but the Labour party being a unionist party very much conforms to some of these trappings historically as well.”
Whittaker said the SNP’s vision was a “profound challenge” to a consensus around British island identify which had been around for at least “many, many” decades.
He said: “I think that does have a real power and it has implications that goes beyond just Scottish independence.
“Because what it does is it exposes that the links between Britishness and Empire are so profound I don’t think that we as British people have fully begun to reckon with that in its totality.
“The fact the Empire is long gone, the fact that we have Brexit, the fact in Northern Ireland I think there is going to be border poll within the next decade or so, the fact that all these things are happening really shows the fragility of Britishness without the Empire."
He added: “Britishnesss is pretty fragile and without the Empire and without Queen Elizabeth II as well – that I think is a bit of a coincidence, but a really profound one, the fact she has passed away in the time period she has."
Whittaker also argued the long-term prospects for the UK staying united are “pretty poor”, including that it was not unreasonable to expect for support for Plaid Cymru to grow incrementally in Wales.
He said despite the Conservatives claiming to be the most proudly Unionist party, in reality it has been “pretty cavalier” about the Union.
“They have this public persona almost of the Union is the most important thing, we are a UK party, Britishness is what is really important,” he said.
“But the insouciance with which they have treated particularly Northern Ireland is revelatory of a deeper attitude which is actually that these Westminster parties – although Labour have a bit more of a cosmopolitan attitude in general.
"But particularly the Conservatives are an English party, they are a party of English nationalism.”
READ MORE: Break-up of Britain conference to salute Tom Nairn set for Edinburgh
Whittaker said while the “high watermark” for having another independence referendum appeared to have passed in Scotland, he would not be surprised it if came back.
He said the emergence of younger generations who want to get back into the EU would be a difficult issue for politicians from Unionist parties to ignore.
“I think constituencies for rejoining the EU are going to emerge all across the UK, but I think it is a far easier sell in Scotland than it is in England,” he said.
“And there is the massive economic pressures and cost of living and so on.
Two years ago, Michael Gove said that the UK government would not stand in the way of another vote on Scottish independence if it is the “settled will” of voters, and that if the public desire a second referendum, “one would occur”. www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/aug/01/scottish-independence-vote-will-happen-if-public-wants-it-says-michael-goveHowever, lest voting on independence should become the 'settled will' of the Scots, Gove is now recruiting two policy advisors dedicated to help making the “benefits of the Union clear, tangible and understood” to them. Why is it acceptable for Westminster to promote the Union if it's unacceptable for ScotGov to promote independence? It is, after all, the platform upon which they won election, is it not? |
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Post by thomas on Aug 20, 2023 14:49:29 GMT
Britishness 'more fragile' after Brexit and death of Queen Elizabeth
Two years ago, Michael Gove said that the UK government would not stand in the way of another vote on Scottish independence if it is the “settled will” of voters, and that if the public desire a second referendum, “one would occur”. www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/aug/01/scottish-independence-vote-will-happen-if-public-wants-it-says-michael-goveHowever, lest voting on independence should become the 'settled will' of the Scots, Gove is now recruiting two policy advisors dedicated to help making the “benefits of the Union clear, tangible and understood” to them. Why is it acceptable for Westminster to promote the Union if it's unacceptable for ScotGov to promote independence? It is, after all, the platform upon which they won election, is it not? I dont see this as a negative ripley. A man as hated in scotland as michael gove , from a party that has never won an election in scotland in the modern era( unless you count the old scottish and conservative unionist party three quarters of a century ago rather than the essentially english one nation tories of today) recruiting policy advisers to lecture us scots once again on how too wee too poor and too worthless we are is funny. Im mean what could possibly go wrong?
i say this in realtion to the above article written by doctor whittaker , but scotland was part of their union since 1707 , and for the first 120 years of union there was nothing but constant armed uprising rebellion to get scotland out.
social historians like doctor whittaker could tell gove what promoted britishness in scotland. The post war social democratic consensus produced a british identity among those born during the war years , gave many scots a shared sense of britishness that was lacking in all other scottish generations previous , through nationalised industries and institutions in the form of jobs , social security housing and much else , which successive conservative governments since thatcher , as well as the red tories under blair and brown took a wrecking ball to.
As many have said , they privatised or closed down britishness , and young scots have no sense of it whatsoever , and here we are.
A tory minister trying to sell the benefits of the union to scots who routinely reject their governance and policy at the ballot box must be as futile as a nazi trying to sell anti semitism to the jews. Its fucking laughable.
The writing is on the wall as the good professor says in his article regarding the demise of bwitain. We all see it. Scotland is massively anti tory , pro scottish and extremely pro european.
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 20, 2023 15:03:03 GMT
More talk...  |
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Post by thomas on Aug 20, 2023 15:04:57 GMT
More talk... Thanks for the input. Its a debating forum , talk is what we do. |
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Post by om15 on Aug 20, 2023 15:17:38 GMT
Unfortunately they didn't reject it at the Scottish independence Referendum.
It would have saved us a lot of ear bashing and a lot of Barnett subsidies if they had rejected our governance at the time, I agree that trying to sell the benefits of the Union to a shower of 17th Century bigots is a waste of time though.
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Post by thomas on Aug 20, 2023 15:31:44 GMT
Unfortunately they didn't reject it at the Scottish independence Referendum. It would have saved us a lot of ear bashing and a lot of Barnett subsidies if they had rejected our governance at the time, I agree that trying to sell the benefits of the Union to a shower of 17th Century bigots is a waste of time though. we voted to remain in a uk that was in the EU. wonder why you keep forgetting that fact.?
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Post by thomas on Aug 20, 2023 15:45:18 GMT
I agree that trying to sell the benefits of the Union to a shower of 17th Century bigots is a waste of time though. can you help me here om and tell me the significance of 17th century bigots? Who are you reffering to ? |
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Post by Ripley on Aug 20, 2023 16:28:59 GMT
Two years ago, Michael Gove said that the UK government would not stand in the way of another vote on Scottish independence if it is the “settled will” of voters, and that if the public desire a second referendum, “one would occur”. www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/aug/01/scottish-independence-vote-will-happen-if-public-wants-it-says-michael-goveHowever, lest voting on independence should become the 'settled will' of the Scots, Gove is now recruiting two policy advisors dedicated to help making the “benefits of the Union clear, tangible and understood” to them. Why is it acceptable for Westminster to promote the Union if it's unacceptable for ScotGov to promote independence? It is, after all, the platform upon which they won election, is it not? I dont see this as a negative ripley. A man as hated in scotland as michael gove , from a party that has never won an election in scotland in the modern era( unless you count the old scottish and conservative unionist party three quarters of a century ago rather than the essentially english one nation tories of today) recruiting policy advisers to lecture us scots once again on how too wee too poor and too worthless we are is funny. Im mean what could possibly go wrong?
i say this in realtion to the above article written by doctor whittaker , but scotland was part of their union since 1707 , and for the first 120 years of union there was nothing but constant armed uprising rebellion to get scotland out.
social historians like doctor whittaker could tell gove what promoted britishness in scotland. The post war social democratic consensus produced a british identity among those born during the war years , gave many scots a shared sense of britishness that was lacking in all other scottish generations previous , through nationalised industries and institutions in the form of jobs , social security housing and much else , which successive conservative governments since thatcher , as well as the red tories under blair and brown took a wrecking ball to.
As many have said , they privatised or closed down britishness , and young scots have no sense of it whatsoever , and here we are.
A tory minister trying to sell the benefits of the union to scots who routinely reject their governance and policy at the ballot box must be as futile as a nazi trying to sell anti semitism to the jews. Its fucking laughable.
The writing is on the wall as the good professor says in his article regarding the demise of bwitain. We all see it. Scotland is massively anti tory , pro scottish and extremely pro european.
I tend to agree that it's an exercise in futility. Recruiting two policy advisors to promote the benefits of the Union is a measure that suggests Westminster's desperation to prevent Scottish independence. |
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Post by thomas on Aug 20, 2023 17:10:09 GMT
I dont see this as a negative ripley. A man as hated in scotland as michael gove , from a party that has never won an election in scotland in the modern era( unless you count the old scottish and conservative unionist party three quarters of a century ago rather than the essentially english one nation tories of today) recruiting policy advisers to lecture us scots once again on how too wee too poor and too worthless we are is funny. Im mean what could possibly go wrong?
i say this in realtion to the above article written by doctor whittaker , but scotland was part of their union since 1707 , and for the first 120 years of union there was nothing but constant armed uprising rebellion to get scotland out.
social historians like doctor whittaker could tell gove what promoted britishness in scotland. The post war social democratic consensus produced a british identity among those born during the war years , gave many scots a shared sense of britishness that was lacking in all other scottish generations previous , through nationalised industries and institutions in the form of jobs , social security housing and much else , which successive conservative governments since thatcher , as well as the red tories under blair and brown took a wrecking ball to.
As many have said , they privatised or closed down britishness , and young scots have no sense of it whatsoever , and here we are.
A tory minister trying to sell the benefits of the union to scots who routinely reject their governance and policy at the ballot box must be as futile as a nazi trying to sell anti semitism to the jews. Its fucking laughable.
The writing is on the wall as the good professor says in his article regarding the demise of bwitain. We all see it. Scotland is massively anti tory , pro scottish and extremely pro european.
I tend to agree that it's an exercise in futility. Recruiting two policy advisors to promote the benefits of the Union is a measure that suggests Westminster's desperation to prevent Scottish independence. i suspect rather then any benefit they can possibly scratch out from behind the dirt , it will more likely be more of the project fear we cannae be indy becuase we are too poor etc etc. Ive been engaging in these independence arguments all my life , and i still havent ever heard a positive case or the union. It tends to be misty eyed romanticism of a long gone empire , and what scotland allegedly cant do. You see it all across these forums.
Meanwhile in the real world , the torygraph is telling young folk to get the hell out of tory britian while they can , or that the young wont receive a state pension.
Tell the young the truth: they won’t get a state pension
Younger people have been given a bad deal. Older people should make sacrifices to help them
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Post by johnofgwent on Aug 20, 2023 18:12:49 GMT
Unfortunately they didn't reject it at the Scottish independence Referendum. It would have saved us a lot of ear bashing and a lot of Barnett subsidies if they had rejected our governance at the time, I agree that trying to sell the benefits of the Union to a shower of 17th Century bigots is a waste of time though. we voted to remain in a uk that was in the EU. wonder why you keep forgetting that fact.?
did you ? Well that’s strange because i didn’t see the words ‘while we remain in the EU’ as a clause on the ballot paper. Scotland voted to remain part of the UK end of |
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Post by johnofgwent on Aug 20, 2023 18:31:26 GMT
Anyway, i don’t really accept much of the postulations in the OP
Britain’s identity IS down the toilet but that’s more to do with Blair empowering these feudal warlords north and west of london and bending over and taking it up the shitter from Northern Ireland than anything else. We gave up being a superpower in the 1960s if not earlier
The other factor is our cities are a globalised piss pot in which you rarely hear an english voice because the invaders who want to see the Royal Standard over Buck House torn down and replaced with a black and white one are the only ones mouthing off down their phones in the street.
I might agree Charlie Wing Nuts has hardly helped the situation but he is not the issue and neither is Brexit. And as for this jerk saying Plaid are gaining popularity… they are responsible for the 50mph on the motorways and 20 everywhere else and i’m surprised more aren’t being found face down in gutters.
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Post by bancroft on Aug 20, 2023 19:31:49 GMT
Anyway, i don’t really accept much of the postulations in the OP Britain’s identity IS down the toilet but that’s more to do with Blair empowering these feudal warlords north and west of london and bending over and taking it up the shitter from Northern Ireland than anything else. We gave up being a superpower in the 1960s if not earlier The other factor is our cities are a globalised piss pot in which you rarely hear an english voice because the invaders who want to see the Royal Standard over Buck House torn down and replaced with a black and white one are the only ones mouthing off down their phones in the street. I might agree Charlie Wing Nuts has hardly helped the situation but he is not the issue and neither is Brexit. And as for this jerk saying Plaid are gaining popularity… they are responsible for the 50mph on the motorways and 20 everywhere else and i’m surprised more aren’t being found face down in gutters. Any English people with money tend to leave the cities too much crime and congestion. |
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 20, 2023 21:11:58 GMT
More talk... Thanks for the input. Its a debating forum , talk is what we do. I know talk is what you do. The SNP is almost a 100 years old and all they do is talk about leaving - wake me up when something happens.. |
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