|
Post by Orac on Aug 20, 2023 10:14:17 GMT
Democracy is both the ability to enact legislation because it is popular and, probably far more importantly, the ability remove legislation because it is unpopular.
I have long argued that the public should be able to revoke legislation by plebiscite
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Aug 20, 2023 10:40:53 GMT
Well personally I'm all up for direct democracy - I do feel however that your love of it might diminish once its in action.. ..but if your happy - sounds good. I think it might get different results to that you think if people were well informed of the consequences of their desires. You can't do that and remain impartial because all consequences have not happened and are not yet facts. This is why we have a party system - ie we vote for a controlling group. A party is the means by which consequences are folded into the calculation of what can be offered without any one body making an official declaration (ie it remains a matter of opinion) Reformers, in their enthusiasm for change, often miss key reasons the system is the way it is.
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Aug 20, 2023 11:17:33 GMT
Democracy is both the ability to enact legislation because it is popular and, probably far more importantly, the ability remove legislation because it is unpopular. I have long argued that the public should be able to revoke legislation by plebiscite Agreed. My only qualification would be that the pros and cons are both represented before any vote. That lies and misinformation are removed from the argument. For instance Farage's claim that Turkey was about to join the EU and flood the UK with cheap labour, would be marked as very unlikely and pure speculation.
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Aug 20, 2023 11:28:41 GMT
I think it might get different results to that you think if people were well informed of the consequences of their desires. You can't do that and remain impartial because all consequences have not happened and are not yet facts. But some consequences are facts. If you vote for not increasing taxes a consequence is that you wont get new drugs and treatments. Someone claiming both can be done would need to show how. So you don't want direct democracy? At the end of the day almost everything we could vote on is a matter of opinion. Thus the debate before the vote.
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Aug 20, 2023 11:32:24 GMT
Democracy is both the ability to enact legislation because it is popular and, probably far more importantly, the ability remove legislation because it is unpopular. I have long argued that the public should be able to revoke legislation by plebiscite Agreed. My only qualification would be that the pros and cons are both represented before any vote. That lies and misinformation are removed from the argument. You can't do this impartially because consequences are not yet facts. Having a single 'official correct truth' about the predicted consequences of policy is undemocratic - it is also unscientific What you appear to be hunting for is an official, bureaucratically decided world view imposed on what would quickly become a democratic pantomime
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Aug 20, 2023 11:43:54 GMT
But some consequences are facts. In a very limited physical sense, some might be impartially argued as such. No politically pertinent or social consequence gets anywhere near that level of certainty. Part of the purpose of the democratic process is the public argument / discussion about what policy causes what consequence and by how much. You appear to want this discussion removed and replaced with one official view (presumably your opinions restated as official facts) You display this undemocratic tendency often btw
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Aug 20, 2023 11:46:04 GMT
Agreed. My only qualification would be that the pros and cons are both represented before any vote. That lies and misinformation are removed from the argument. You can't do this impartially because consequences are not yet facts. Having a single 'official correct truth' about the predicted consequences of policy is undemocratic - it is also unscientific What you appear to be hunting for is an official, bureaucratically decided world view imposed on what would quickly become a democratic pantomime You don't need to do it impartially as both sides have a say and we already have fact checkers which are widely respected because they only check facts. And why any government truth has to be 'official correct truth' Whilst any challenge to government is just truth. But facts are facts.
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Aug 20, 2023 11:55:53 GMT
But some consequences are facts. In a very limited physical sense, some might be impartially argued as such. No politically pertinent or social consequence gets anywhere near that level of certainty. Part of the purpose of the democratic process is the public argument / discussion about what policy causes what consequence and by how much. You appear to want this discussion removed and replaced with one official view (presumably your opinions restated as official facts) You appear to want my opinions shutdown because they are not yours. My suggestion has always been that a debate is put to the public on a proper website. That emotive pictures of mile long queues of refugees on the side of buses would be banned as spam. Only because you view anything that disagrees with your twisted view of the world as undemocratic. You would have every official or expert gagged like they don't have a right to their say.
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Aug 20, 2023 12:16:26 GMT
You appear to want my opinions shutdown because they are not yours. My suggestion has always been that a debate is put to the public on a proper website. That emotive pictures of mile long queues of refugees on the side of buses would be banned as spam. You misunderstand my position. No opinion is banned or forbidden, but there should be no 'official political truth' What counts as 'emotive' and what counts as fact is just yet another political opinion, in the same way as policy consequences are. This will also mean that public employees can't use resources taken from citizens to argue for their personal political opinions.
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Aug 20, 2023 12:36:56 GMT
You appear to want my opinions shutdown because they are not yours. My suggestion has always been that a debate is put to the public on a proper website. That emotive pictures of mile long queues of refugees on the side of buses would be banned as spam. You misunderstand my position. No opinion is banned or forbidden, but there should be no 'official political truth' What counts as 'emotive' and what counts as fact is just yet another political opinion, in the same way as policy consequences are. Now you're really talking nonsense. The picture I described carried no facts, it was just emotive. It implied things people were fearful of but carried no facts. This is an opinion and should not share equal status with the truth.
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Aug 20, 2023 12:44:28 GMT
You misunderstand my position. No opinion is banned or forbidden, but there should be no 'official political truth' What counts as 'emotive' and what counts as fact is just yet another political opinion, in the same way as policy consequences are. This will also mean that public employees can't use resources taken from citizens to argue for their personal political opinions. Now you're really talking nonsense. The picture I described carried no facts, it was just emotive. It implied things people were fearful of but carried no facts. A photograph itself can actually sensibly be described as a fact. However, it's interpretation as 'overly emotive' or 'pertinent' is not a fact - it's an opinion.
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Aug 20, 2023 13:00:20 GMT
Whereas the resources given by rich media should be allowed. See, you just want people you disagree with silenced. Public employees will have the same rights to transmit their opinion as anyone else. What they wont be allowed to do is use their privileges to take public money to do so or claim their opinions are 'official facts'
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Aug 20, 2023 14:02:52 GMT
Now you're really talking nonsense. The picture I described carried no facts, it was just emotive. It implied things people were fearful of but carried no facts. A photograph itself can actually sensibly be described as a fact. However, it's interpretation as 'overly emotive' or 'pertinent' is not a fact - it's an opinion. A photograph totally unrelated to the opinion given is at the very minimum misleading and more likely an antifact as in a lie. This photograph is a fact. The attached writing is an opinion. The combination of the two is a lie because the road in the photo is not the A1077.
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Aug 20, 2023 14:18:59 GMT
Zany, there are uses of photography and words that we might both agree are misleading. The problem isn't the cases that we all agree on, it's the cases when there is no or little agreement.
Politics is the part of any issue that people disagree about.
In short - If everyone agrees something is misleading, there is no need for enforcement and, if people disagree , there is no truly objective basis for enforcement.
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Aug 20, 2023 14:26:07 GMT
Zany, there are uses of photography and words that we might both agree are misleading. The problem isn't the cases that we all agree on, it's the cases when there is no or little agreement. Politics is the part of any issue that people disagree about. In short - If everyone agrees something is misleading, there is no need for enforcement and, if people disagree , there is no truly objective basis for enforcement. Yes, but an independent body should be allowed to say 'this photograph is not of the topic it is claimed to support. This photo and attached writing is closer to the truth, but even then one might question that the A1077 is not an 8 lane motorway. In this case the independent body would simply point this out.
|
|