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Post by Orac on Aug 15, 2023 16:59:58 GMT
The specter i raised has nothing to do with anyone being arrested -
Civil service unions can use the power to defeat elected governments
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Post by wapentake on Aug 15, 2023 17:04:02 GMT
The specter i raised has nothing to do with anyone being arrested - Civil service unions can use the power to defeat elected governmentsThat I don’t doubt but that can and should be remedied. |
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 15, 2023 17:09:22 GMT
I'm no expert, but isn't there a big practical problem here? How would the energy be transmitted from the Whitehall power stations to the UK public's homes? This whole mess is caused by the immense economic power of a territorial monopoly. The whole mess is caused by successive administrations short termism without regard to our energy security,that and allowing essential utilities to be foreign owned.
And as with other things we are a laughing stock. With regards to energy security and foreign ownership - the last time we had widespread power cuts was when the system was owned and controlled by the UK State. That is not to say that ownership doesn't matter, but it is not the magic bullet than some believe. |
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Post by wapentake on Aug 15, 2023 17:21:58 GMT
The whole mess is caused by successive administrations short termism without regard to our energy security,that and allowing essential utilities to be foreign owned.
And as with other things we are a laughing stock. With regards to energy security and foreign ownership - the last time we had widespread power cuts was when the system was owned and controlled by the UK State. That is not to say that ownership doesn't matter, but it is not the magic bullet than some believe. A mutual is private but public and times have changed since scargill. |
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Post by zanygame on Aug 15, 2023 17:50:05 GMT
Ah Pacifico how did I know you’d pop up to defend these crooks  That’s because you always do. The difference?No crooked middlemen and restore a modernised version of the electric boards, investment to ensure energy security woefully neglected by all administrations for decades. I even said they could be mutuals to placate tories like you who still believe all Saint Maggies privatisations were the equivalent of god handing down the Ten Commandments to Moses holy and sacrosanct when in fact many are nothing but a disaster. Wasting my time I know because you’ll never see it much like your avatar Alf.  What genius to self off essential utilities then bought up by state owned companies of our European neighbours,you do know the customers of edf in France are charged less than Brits,gross negligence and stupidity by our masters in Westminster neglecting our interests. Well there are a lot of words but no answers to the question. Lets stick to specifics - would you nationalise Shell?. If so where is the $400 Billion coming from?. Add in BP - thats another $300 Billion. You have spent an awful lot of money that you dont have. Or are you just going to nationalise the energy distributors like Centrica - which would cost about $30 Billion for each one (there are 6). Of course you would then get the profits from that investment - this year Centrica made a healthy profit, last year they lost money.. That you cannot articulate what differences you would expect to see for all this expense kinda indicates that it would be an exercise in futility. So because its difficult, we shouldn't do it. Hmm. |
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Post by zanygame on Aug 15, 2023 17:51:25 GMT
The whole mess is caused by successive administrations short termism without regard to our energy security,that and allowing essential utilities to be foreign owned. And as with other things we are a laughing stock. How did the British public end up with (choose) that unsavory compromise? They did so because the other bargain offered looked even worse. Are you really suggesting the public was offered a choice? |
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Post by zanygame on Aug 15, 2023 17:53:13 GMT
It's simple. The government do what the private energy companies do. They run their operations from a computerised office which records smart meter readings or takes them from a central database. They "buy in" energy as a commodity which has no tangible form as electricity, then sell it on to make profit and pay their staff and overheads. Similar with gas, which at least has a physical form. Bought in cheap, sold on dearer. Cutting out middle men and shareholder profit would be beneficial to customers. What's the real practical problem, again? What happens when the unionised civil servants who operate the switches, decide to cut off the nation's electricity to pursue a 150% pay rise and make Glory Hole Studies part of the UK's mandatory curriculum in primary schools? Edit to add - You are right about the practical problem if the infrastructure is all taken into public ownership What happens when aliens land and destroy all our power stations? |
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Post by Orac on Aug 15, 2023 18:01:59 GMT
How did the British public end up with (choose) that unsavory compromise? They did so because the other bargain offered looked even worse. Are you really suggesting the public was offered a choice? Yes. The British public had a choice between a nationalised provider that might be used to overturn elections and a private-ish approach that would reliably provide electricity |
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Post by zanygame on Aug 15, 2023 18:07:45 GMT
Are you really suggesting the public was offered a choice? Yes. The British public had a choice between a nationalised provider that might be used to overturn elections and a private-ish approach that would reliably provide electricity When was this referendum? |
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Post by Orac on Aug 15, 2023 18:17:36 GMT
Yes. The British public had a choice between a nationalised provider that might be used to overturn elections and a private-ish approach that would reliably provide electricity When was this referendum? There is no referendum. IIRC, one major party offered continuing nationalisation and the other offered privatization. Some time near the late eighties probably. |
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Post by zanygame on Aug 15, 2023 19:15:32 GMT
When was this referendum? There is no referendum. IIRC, one major party offered continuing nationalisation and the other offered privatization. Some time near the late eighties probably. Ah yes. The old general election thing. Where you can pick anything that's happened and claim the public voted for it. |
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Post by Orac on Aug 15, 2023 20:14:11 GMT
There is no referendum. IIRC, one major party offered continuing nationalisation and the other offered privatization. Some time near the late eighties probably. Ah yes. The old general election thing. Where you can pick anything that's happened and claim the public voted for it. If one major party offers one option and the other offers the converse, it's not a bad measure. Things get blocked up a bit if both parties take a united stand in opposition to the bulk of the public - ie as with immigration and EU membership. That sort of thing shouldn't happen and it's a bit notable and odd that it did |
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Post by zanygame on Aug 15, 2023 20:36:07 GMT
Ah yes. The old general election thing. Where you can pick anything that's happened and claim the public voted for it. If one major party offers one option and the other offers the converse, it's not a bad measure. Things get blocked up a bit if both parties take a united stand in opposition to the bulk of the public - ie as with immigration and EU membership. That sort of thing shouldn't happen and it's a bit notable and odd that it did So joining the EU? excellent. |
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Post by Orac on Aug 15, 2023 20:49:23 GMT
If one major party offers one option and the other offers the converse, it's not a bad measure. Things get blocked up a bit if both parties take a united stand in opposition to the bulk of the public - ie as with immigration and EU membership. That sort of thing shouldn't happen and it's a bit notable and odd that it did So joining the EU? excellent. I don't think so? We joined the Eu in 1993. IIRC both parties were in favour. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2023 20:51:32 GMT
It's simple. The government do what the private energy companies do. They run their operations from a computerised office which records smart meter readings or takes them from a central database. They "buy in" energy as a commodity which has no tangible form as electricity, then sell it on to make profit and pay their staff and overheads. Similar with gas, which at least has a physical form. Bought in cheap, sold on dearer. Cutting out middle men and shareholder profit would be beneficial to customers. What's the real practical problem, again? What happens when the unionised civil servants who operate the switches, decide to cut off the nation's electricity to pursue a 150% pay rise and make Glory Hole Studies part of the UK's mandatory curriculum in primary schools? Edit to add - You are right about the practical problem if the infrastructure is all taken into public ownership Perhaps we should deal with more likely scenarios, Orac. And, yes, the actual infrastructure must all be nationally owned, a bit like the individual railway companies don't maintain the tracks. UK power networks must stay in control of maintenance. Foreign companies need to be recompensed, as we are not Argentina. |
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