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Post by Orac on Aug 27, 2023 16:16:10 GMT
In the context of these discussions, privatised companies are also answerable to government through the terms of their licensing Because, in the case of a private company, the strike is against a private entity that can only offer what makes some economic sense in terms of the value of the service they provide (sell). The company can also replace its workers without having to go through civil service HR. You missed out the critical factors of this conversation. That the service is essential, that they are the only supplier. Put the goal posts back where they were and your argument doesn't work. So the best choice is the option that is most likely to result in reliable supply. I don't think i'm missing anything here.
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 27, 2023 17:11:23 GMT
You missed out the critical factors of this conversation. That the service is essential, that they are the only supplier. Put the goal posts back where they were and your argument doesn't work. So the best choice is the option that is most likely to result in reliable supply. I don't think i'm missing anything here. Well as we had far more power cuts when the energy sector was Nationalised....
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Post by zanygame on Aug 27, 2023 17:40:53 GMT
You missed out the critical factors of this conversation. That the service is essential, that they are the only supplier. Put the goal posts back where they were and your argument doesn't work. So the best choice is the option that is most likely to result in reliable supply. I don't think i'm missing anything here. I'll spell it out. You claim Because, in the case of a private company, the strike is against a private entity that can only offer what makes some economic sense in terms of the value of the service they provide (sell). The company can also replace its workers without having to go through civil service HR. But if the service is essential there is no upper limit, and if there is no competition the company cannot go bankrupt. The best option for such a private and profit making company is to settle and put its prices up. Hence the 3.5k bill for metre of pipe and a tap.
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 27, 2023 17:44:35 GMT
So the best choice is the option that is most likely to result in reliable supply. I don't think i'm missing anything here. I'll spell it out. You claim Because, in the case of a private company, the strike is against a private entity that can only offer what makes some economic sense in terms of the value of the service they provide (sell). The company can also replace its workers without having to go through civil service HR. But if the service is essential there is no upper limit, and if there is no competition the company cannot go bankrupt.
The best option for such a private and profit making company is to settle and put its prices up. Hence the 3.5k bill for metre of pipe and a tap. Dont know if you noticed but there have been several Rail Franchises handed back because they are effectively uneconomic and bankrupt. Private sector monopolies are just as restricted (by State regulation) on what they can charge as state owned monopolies.
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Post by zanygame on Aug 27, 2023 18:02:48 GMT
I'll spell it out. You claim Because, in the case of a private company, the strike is against a private entity that can only offer what makes some economic sense in terms of the value of the service they provide (sell). The company can also replace its workers without having to go through civil service HR. But if the service is essential there is no upper limit, and if there is no competition the company cannot go bankrupt.
The best option for such a private and profit making company is to settle and put its prices up. Hence the 3.5k bill for metre of pipe and a tap. Dont know if you noticed but there have been several Rail Franchises handed back because they are effectively uneconomic and bankrupt. Private sector monopolies are just as restricted (by State regulation) on what they can charge as state owned monopolies. Then there's no difference between private and public? Make up your mind, only 5 seconds ago you were claiming public industry unions can ask the tax payer for any amount, no upper limit.
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 27, 2023 21:27:51 GMT
Dont know if you noticed but there have been several Rail Franchises handed back because they are effectively uneconomic and bankrupt. Private sector monopolies are just as restricted (by State regulation) on what they can charge as state owned monopolies. Then there's no difference between private and public? Make up your mind, only 5 seconds ago you were claiming public industry unions can ask the tax payer for any amount, no upper limit. I dont think I was I merely pointed out that the Public Sector had more strikes - which is pretty obvious as there is no sanction on the workers if they drive their sector into the ground.
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Post by zanygame on Aug 27, 2023 21:43:49 GMT
Then there's no difference between private and public? Make up your mind, only 5 seconds ago you were claiming public industry unions can ask the tax payer for any amount, no upper limit. I dont think I was I merely pointed out that the Public Sector had more strikes - which is pretty obvious as there is no sanction on the workers if they drive their sector into the ground. So those government owned railways franchises couldn't go bankrupt.
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 27, 2023 21:46:05 GMT
Of course they cant - no government department can. Thats as daft as saying the UK Government can go bankrupt.
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Post by zanygame on Aug 28, 2023 6:08:48 GMT
Of course they cant - no government department can. Thats as daft as saying the UK Government can go bankrupt. So the worst of all worlds. A private owned company where if the owners make a hash of it they just hand it back and walk away.
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 28, 2023 6:30:05 GMT
Of course they cant - no government department can. Thats as daft as saying the UK Government can go bankrupt. So the worst of all worlds. A private owned company where if the owners make a hash of it they just hand it back and walk away. So they have incentive not to make a hash of it - unlike Nationalised businesses.
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Post by Orac on Aug 28, 2023 8:39:22 GMT
Dont know if you noticed but there have been several Rail Franchises handed back because they are effectively uneconomic and bankrupt. Private sector monopolies are just as restricted (by State regulation) on what they can charge as state owned monopolies. Then there's no difference between private and public? Make up your mind, only 5 seconds ago you were claiming public industry unions can ask the tax payer for any amount, no upper limit. It has been my point for a while that the differences are small in the areas you are complaining about. It seems to me the big advantage of the 'private' model is that it makes it less likely the service will be withdrawn to blackmail / coerce the public - it is harder to hijack because of the incentives the management / owners have. Sometimes i wonder dreamily about the public sector and ask wouldn't the incentives be better if they couldn't get paid unless they actually provide the services government promises - ie unless the border is actually enforced to a certain standard, nobody involved in that arm of governance receives any money? Unfortunately, because of the ambiguity in many government services this is tricky stuff - ie you can't sell border security or low crime as a discreet commodity - umm except perhaps implicitly via the value of secure, low crime land (territory).
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Post by zanygame on Aug 28, 2023 19:54:17 GMT
So the worst of all worlds. A private owned company where if the owners make a hash of it they just hand it back and walk away. So they have incentive not to make a hash of it - unlike Nationalised businesses. I see no chance of common ground and no chance of progress. Best to stop here.
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Post by dodgydave on Aug 28, 2023 22:12:34 GMT
Wait what... you do realise that automatically penalises the poor and eldery because they are less energy efficient? lol. I live in a mega insulated new build, I've got solar panels, and my appliances are all A rated... so you just made my energy bill cheaper... with a household income of £120k lol. Don't talk nonsense. The poor even if they're elderly use far less energy than the rich. You may live in a future house, so do I but with a heated swimming pool and a gym and 5 reception rooms with every gadget going, along with the beautifully lit garden I assure you the rich use far more power than the guy trying to live in the one room he can afford to keep warm. No we just don't record them. Can you not get the news. Add to this the special permission our private water companies have to dump sewage in our rivers every time it rains without calling it a spill. I do agree the nationalised water companies were starved of funds until it build up a massive legacy problem. In order to convince people that only privatisation would solve it. And guess what! The year after privatisation the new water companies were allowed to raise prices by a staggering 20%. Ooh wow. How much better would the national water companies have done with a 20% increase in budget. You can obviously see Tory propaganda, yet you consistently fall for left-wing propaganda. They are all trying to sell you bullshit so you conform to their narrative. When you talk about "the rich" you fall for the left-wing equivalent of blaming immigrants and welfare scroungers. The problems of a country are solved by the 80% Average Joe., not the top 1% or the bottom 10%. The rich guy with the swimming pool is a dog whistle red herring, the numbers of those people are so small that they will never subsidise those that need it. That 80% need to pay more taxes, just like they do in the Nordic countries. Again, your water points are just left-wing propaganda garbage, do some proper research and under the actually problems. We have invested more than anybody else in Europe EVERY year for the last 30 years. You have ignored the cleaner drinking water, less leaks, cleaner rivers and concentrate on sewage release... while ignoring the fact we didn't have any clean beaches before privatisation... they were all notorious for having turds on them. Would I like a nationalised system that was properly funded? Yes of course. However, the fact it failed before is not because of the Tories... it is because THE BRITISH DO NOT LIKE HIGH TAXES. Nothing much is going to change under Starmer, because that snake cannot have an honest conversation with the public. We are living well beyond our means and no amount of populistic bollocks like scrapping charity status for private schools & non-Dom, or issuing windfall taxes is going to raise the taxes we need to improve the country.
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Post by zanygame on Aug 29, 2023 1:58:36 GMT
Don't talk nonsense. The poor even if they're elderly use far less energy than the rich. You may live in a future house, so do I but with a heated swimming pool and a gym and 5 reception rooms with every gadget going, along with the beautifully lit garden I assure you the rich use far more power than the guy trying to live in the one room he can afford to keep warm. No we just don't record them. Can you not get the news. Add to this the special permission our private water companies have to dump sewage in our rivers every time it rains without calling it a spill. I do agree the nationalised water companies were starved of funds until it build up a massive legacy problem. In order to convince people that only privatisation would solve it. And guess what! The year after privatisation the new water companies were allowed to raise prices by a staggering 20%. Ooh wow. How much better would the national water companies have done with a 20% increase in budget. You can obviously see Tory propaganda, yet you consistently fall for left-wing propaganda. They are all trying to sell you bullshit so you conform to their narrative. When you talk about "the rich" you fall for the left-wing equivalent of blaming immigrants and welfare scroungers. The problems of a country are solved by the 80% Average Joe., not the top 1% or the bottom 10%. The rich guy with the swimming pool is a dog whistle red herring, the numbers of those people are so small that they will never subsidise those that need it. That 80% need to pay more taxes, just like they do in the Nordic countries. Again, your water points are just left-wing propaganda garbage, do some proper research and under the actually problems. We have invested more than anybody else in Europe EVERY year for the last 30 years. You have ignored the cleaner drinking water, less leaks, cleaner rivers and concentrate on sewage release... while ignoring the fact we didn't have any clean beaches before privatisation... they were all notorious for having turds on them. Would I like a nationalised system that was properly funded? Yes of course. However, the fact it failed before is not because of the Tories... it is because THE BRITISH DO NOT LIKE HIGH TAXES. Nothing much is going to change under Starmer, because that snake cannot have an honest conversation with the public. We are living well beyond our means and no amount of populistic bollocks like scrapping charity status for private schools & non-Dom, or issuing windfall taxes is going to raise the taxes we need to improve the country. I think you have fallen for the real propaganda, that fed you by the rich and the media they own. You think the very rich couldn't solve this countries financial issues and they must be borne by those in the middle because that's what you've been fed. The Laffer curve where they would all leave, the 97% tax of some yesteryear, investment in our future, too few of them to make a difference.. All fed to you without the need for you to check because the narrative has been repeated so often. Here's the truth. equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-ukThe top 1% have incomes substantially higher than the rest of those in the top 10%. Since 1980, the share of income earned by the top 1% in the UK has generally been rising, peaking at 14.7% in 2007 before the financial crisis. This is almost double the corresponding figure for Belgium (7%) and still higher than Australia (9%), Sweden (8%) and Norway (8%), to name a few.
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 29, 2023 6:33:29 GMT
UK tax burden currently at record peacetime high and the siren sounds from those on the Left - 'It's not enough'... ...well for some it never will be.
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