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Post by zanygame on Aug 24, 2023 17:23:52 GMT
Going round in circles here,I didn’t say all privatisations were bad but that the utilities certainly were,nor did I say all was rosy but better than what we have now. I even proposed that to allay Thatcherite sensibilities perhaps some some sort of updated mutual status for the energy suppliers be considered. Your comments about car insurance and loans are irrelevant. They are not irrelevant, they strike at the heart of the matter. People are on meters because they are high risk, if everybody was on the same rate YOU would have to pay more. Are you willing to do that? What utilities were better under nationalisation? I cannot think of any, they were all shit, hence nobody cared when they went private. Whether the privatisation was done correctly, with the right amount of oversight is another matter. Personally, I think a better model is a mix of private / public, as when you look around the world the best performing models do just that. Why do people on meters have to pay far more per kWh. Its not as if you can fail to pay. |
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 24, 2023 17:34:05 GMT
Again, you keep accusing "middlemen" of "producing nothing", yet bizarrely rejected my idea that supermarkets "produce nothing" and your local Merc dealership "produces nothing", yet nobody has a problem with that. They buy energy off the market and sell it to consumers, that is literally what capitalism is lol. Remember, millions of people enjoyed months / years of way below market rate prices during the crisis, that is why so many energy providers went bust. Meters were in use long before privatisation to cut the risk of bad debt, and YES credit is essential in modern society: 1) Would YOU be prepared to more to for your car insurance so that a high risk 17 year old could pay the same as you? 2) Would YOU be prepared to pay higher interest of your credit and mortgage so that a person with a bad credit history could benefit from the same rates as you? Do you understand why we sold off our gas and oil? It was because there is virtually none left, and it was far cheaper to import it. If we used 100% North Sea oil / gas it would be gone within FIVE YEARS! "The United Kingdom has proven reserves equivalent to 2.6 times its annual consumption. This means it has about 3 years of gas left (at current consumption levels and excluding unproven reserves)." "The United Kingdom has proven reserves equivalent to 4.8 times its annual consumption. This means that, without imports, there would be about 5 years of oil left (at current consumption levels and excluding unproven reserves)." As for energy security... did we run out of electricity and gas during the crisis? Nope, however your precious France did... we sold them a bunch of our electricity because so many of their old and failing nuclear plants were out of action lol. Yes the price spike has been shit, and help should be provided to get low-income families through. Everybody else however should just suck it up, and remember the decades of cheap prices they enjoyed prior to post-covid / Ukraine. Claiming we would have been shielded had we still been nationalised is utter bollocks... as I have already shown... we would have run out of gas / oil decades ago!!! Again you compare non essentials with essentials. And the reason we are happy with our supermarkets and car dealerships is that there is competition. Try telling Thames water you want to switch supplier. Again you talk about selling gas and oil off. They are the problem. The problem is the crazy system and the middlemen who milk it. If we don't like British gas prices we can go to a dozen others to buy our gas or oil. On Frances nuclear power, they broke down and had to be mended, they're still there and running again now. They sell us far more electricity than we sell them. When we had the London Electricity Board who could I go to if I didn't like their prices or service? |
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Post by zanygame on Aug 24, 2023 17:37:57 GMT
Again you compare non essentials with essentials. And the reason we are happy with our supermarkets and car dealerships is that there is competition. Try telling Thames water you want to switch supplier. Again you talk about selling gas and oil off. They are the problem. The problem is the crazy system and the middlemen who milk it. If we don't like British gas prices we can go to a dozen others to buy our gas or oil. On Frances nuclear power, they broke down and had to be mended, they're still there and running again now. They sell us far more electricity than we sell them. When we had the London Electricity Board who could I go to if I didn't like their prices or service? No idea I'm not that old. But if you're asking who could I go to if I didn't like their prices or service if it was nationalised the answer is nowhere, but then they are not a business making profit. You cannot have a business owning an essential service with no competition. Its a license to print money while giving crap service. Surely even you know that. |
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 24, 2023 17:42:54 GMT
When we had the London Electricity Board who could I go to if I didn't like their prices or service? No idea I'm not that old. But if you're asking who could I go to if I didn't like their prices or service if it was nationalised the answer is nowhere, but then they are not a business making profit.You cannot have a business owning an essential service with no competition. Its a license to print money while giving crap service. Surely even you know that. I'm a customer - I dont care less whether they make a profit or not, I just want a decent service at a fair price. If you are worried about crap service then a monopoly supplier (whether they be in the Private Sector or the State) is the last thing you would want. |
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Post by zanygame on Aug 24, 2023 20:20:19 GMT
No idea I'm not that old. But if you're asking who could I go to if I didn't like their prices or service if it was nationalised the answer is nowhere, but then they are not a business making profit.You cannot have a business owning an essential service with no competition. Its a license to print money while giving crap service. Surely even you know that. I'm a customer - I dont care less whether they make a profit or not, I just want a decent service at a fair price. If you are worried about crap service then a monopoly supplier (whether they be in the Private Sector or the State) is the last thing you would want. Apologies I assumed you did know you cannot have a business owning an essential service with no competition. Seems not. |
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 24, 2023 21:18:05 GMT
I'm a customer - I dont care less whether they make a profit or not, I just want a decent service at a fair price. If you are worried about crap service then a monopoly supplier (whether they be in the Private Sector or the State) is the last thing you would want. Apologies I assumed you did know you cannot have a business owning an essential service with no competition. Seems not. yet you want the state owning a business service with no competition.. ..what have you got against consumers?..  |
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Post by zanygame on Aug 25, 2023 20:08:03 GMT
Apologies I assumed you did know you cannot have a business owning an essential service with no competition. Seems not. yet you want the state owning a business service with no competition.. ..what have you got against consumers?.. The state is answerable to the people. |
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 25, 2023 21:17:31 GMT
yet you want the state owning a business service with no competition.. ..what have you got against consumers?.. The state is answerable to the people. LOL - how naive.  If the State being answerable to the people was enough to prevent nationalised monopoly's from delivering a crap service then why didn't it? |
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Post by zanygame on Aug 25, 2023 21:52:09 GMT
The state is answerable to the people. LOL - how naive. If the State being answerable to the people was enough to prevent nationalised monopoly's from delivering a crap service then why didn't it? Cost cutting to make them fail. Tories wanting them privatised to fill their pockets. Gullible supporters swallowing the crap. |
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 25, 2023 22:00:12 GMT
LOL - how naive. If the State being answerable to the people was enough to prevent nationalised monopoly's from delivering a crap service then why didn't it?
Tories wanting them privatised to fill their pockets. Gullible supporters swallowing the crap. so what happened to them being answerable to the people? or perhaps the people did not get a say just like they dont with any service from the government - they just have to lump it. |
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Post by dodgydave on Aug 25, 2023 23:56:06 GMT
Why do I talk about why privatisation happened... you want an argument with zero context where you can just spout out the negative and pretend we would have been ok but for the nasty capitalists? lol Why do I talk about oil / gas reserves... YOU keep talking about middle men that produce nothing, what the fuck would a nationalised energy company be without any gas / oil reserves... oh yeah a middle man hahaha.Your bulb question is just whataboutery, the government obviously fucked that up... I am not defending privatisation... I am calling bullshit on people that claim it was all rosy before privitisation and that there has been no benefits. I notice you cannot answer my simple questions about equality: 1) Would YOU pay more for car insurance so that a high risk 17 year could pay the same as you? 2) Would YOU pay more for credit / mortgage so that a person with bad credit enjoyed the same rates as you? Middlemen who represent the public not themselves and a cartel. 1) A car is not essential. 2) A mortgage is not essential Electricity and water. Essential. Would you pay more tax so that a high risk patient could pay the same as you? I effectively already pay more to support smokers and fat unhealthy slobs... because they will use the NHS far more than me... that is literally the main problem with the NHS as it is... it takes away person responsibility. A car is not essential... ok I'll walk 26 miles to work and back again at 3am... and try telling the 68% of people that commute by car that it is not essential lol. A mortgage is not essential... it kind of is if you don't have £300k in your back pocket lol. Would you pay more for your energy so that everybody paid the same? This is the problem with the renationalisation argument... half the country is going to be instantly pissed off when they realise they have to pay more lol. |
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Post by dodgydave on Aug 26, 2023 0:18:29 GMT
LOL - how naive. If the State being answerable to the people was enough to prevent nationalised monopoly's from delivering a crap service then why didn't it? Cost cutting to make them fail. Tories wanting them privatised to fill their pockets. Gullible supporters swallowing the crap. The government sets service levels via the regulator, they are literally working to the same standard they would be if they were nationalised. Yes the Tories want small government, but crap public services are not unique to the UK. Have you ever taken a train in Germany? I'm afraid most countries live beyond their means because their citizens are not willing to pay the true cost of good public services. Ask yourself, when fighting for funding, how is water ever going to compete with health, pensions, welfare or the justice system? Or is it easier to fund something by a 3rd party that charges for the actual cost of delivering the service? Look at the sewage release debate... group are demanding that the water companies fix it with their own money... when it is a £600b legacy problem lol. |
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Post by zanygame on Aug 26, 2023 7:32:33 GMT
Cost cutting to make them fail.
Tories wanting them privatised to fill their pockets. Gullible supporters swallowing the crap. so what happened to them being answerable to the people? or perhaps the people did not get a say just like they dont with any service from the government - they just have to lump it. The people were duped. They fell for the scam. Same scam the Tories tried to get the NHS partly privatised. Starve it of funds, get cheats to lie about the figures so it looks like they haven't. Watch it crumble (literally) Then say we really must do something. Now the people have seen what the privatised water companies have done to their water, they are wised up. Its taken years and maybe irreversible, but at least they see it now. |
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Post by zanygame on Aug 26, 2023 7:41:26 GMT
Middlemen who represent the public not themselves and a cartel. 1) A car is not essential. 2) A mortgage is not essential Electricity and water. Essential. Would you pay more tax so that a high risk patient could pay the same as you? Talk about missing the point. Of course you do, we all do. Stable civilisations all provide essential services equally to every citizen. Its what makes them work. A car is not essential... ok I'll walk 26 miles to work and back again at 3am... and try telling the 68% of people that commute by car that it is not essential lol. Or you can't rent. House prices and shortages in this country are a whole different thread. And we do share the cost of having somewhere to live don't we? Yes I would. My suggestion is that the first 4 or 5 kWh are subsidised and paid for by raising the cost of the rest. I don't like living in a country with an obscene wealth gap where a pensioner sits in his lounge with no heating in the middle of winter. |
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 26, 2023 7:43:34 GMT
so what happened to them being answerable to the people? or perhaps the people did not get a say just like they dont with any service from the government - they just have to lump it. The people were duped. They fell for the scam. Same scam the Tories tried to get the NHS partly privatised. Starve it of funds, get cheats to lie about the figures so it looks like they haven't. Watch it crumble (literally) Then say we really must do something. Now the people have seen what the privatised water companies have done to their water, they are wised up. Its taken years and maybe irreversible, but at least they see it now. We had 40 years of nationalised railways under administrations comprised of all 3 major Parties - I think by the end of that the people had some idea of what nationalism entailed and were far from duped. Bearing in mind that it was Labour who slashed half the rail network to save money your obsession with blaming the Tories for every failure by a Government department simply shows how desperately partisan your posts are. |
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