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Post by sandypine on Nov 7, 2022 16:16:15 GMT
The BNP and UKIP are nothing alike.
The BNP only gained some small traction because Labour were covering up child rape gangs. On the most part their small support base were old Labour supporters.
The UKIP was a eurosceptic party that barred anyone with any association with the BNP from joining the party. A party made up of disaffected Conservatives.
Yet many BNP supporters switched seemlessly to supporting UKIP which is why the rise of UKIP saw the collapse in BNP support. Like the guy in the flat opposite to mine who in every election used to have a vote BNP poster in his window, but later switched to a vote UKIP poster. You do not get it, Many people switched to BNP not becasue they were rampant racists but becasue the Triumvirate of the three main parties presented effectively little difference in policy and when they did they did not enact what they said they would. So some may have held their nose and put the cross in place to wake up those in power. It did but instead of enacting different policies they took steps to destroy the messenger. The electorate then tried UKIP in greater numbers and this worked to some degree but the three are back to their fighting over largely minor detail instead of dealing with the issues. At some point the electorate are going to hold their collective noses and put someone really nasty into power who will deal with the problems. |
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Post by dappy on Nov 7, 2022 16:27:42 GMT
Surely only a few people switched to the BNP, Sandy and even they were so revolted when they actually heard from Nick's mouth what the BNP actually stood for, they very rapidly switched back.
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 7, 2022 17:15:51 GMT
Would you rather the BNP had carried on attracting support and had grown like the RN in France ? I think it's great that a non racist alternative appeared and killed off the BNP. In the General Election of 2010 the BNP got 564,331 votes. By 2015 they were getting less than 5 thousand votes. The BNP are a DEAD party. Don't worry, be happy. It killed it off by being a more effective racist party, without the neo-nazi baggage UKIP were a racist Party like Labour were an antisemitic Party... |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2022 17:45:06 GMT
It killed it off by being a more effective racist party, without the neo-nazi baggage UKIP were a racist Party like Labour were an antisemitic Party... I have little doubt that there were and probably still are some genuine antisemites in Labour, just as there are in the Tories and others. But in my time in the party I never met a genuine anti-semite locally. Though after leaving, whilst out leafletting for TUSC (Trade Union and Socialist coalition) I did encounter a couple of lefties who muttered about Rothschild conspiracies. So I know left wing anti-semitism can exist. But the degree of it within Labour was grossly exaggerated and weaponised by external enemies and by internal factional opponents. Any support at all for the oppressed Palestinians, and any criticism of Israel or Zionist ideology and the way it was being interpreted was automatically assumed to be inherently anti-semitic in an attempt to shut down legitimate criticism. And the centrists eagerly went along with this and were complicit in this since it could be readily weaponised against the left, who had collectively taken up the cause of the Palestinians as they had the blacks in apartheid South Africa. In short, genuine anti-semitism in Labour was grossly exagerrated and weaponised for dubious political aims in the attempt to destroy the left. Internally in Labour itself it largely succeeded which is why the genuine left have largely given up on Labour. The left however is struggling to cohere as a unified force outside it. Some of us are pressing for the need for that. In the meantime, in my locale I will lend my support to whomever the most progressive candidates are. They tend not to be Labour. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2022 18:07:27 GMT
UKIP were a racist Party like Labour were an antisemitic Party... I have little doubt that there were and probably still are some genuine antisemites in Labour, just as there are in the Tories and others. But in my time in the party I never met a genuine anti-semite locally. Though after leaving, whilst out leafletting for TUSC (Trade Union and Socialist coalition) I did encounter a couple of lefties who muttered about Rothschild conspiracies. So I know left wing anti-semitism can exist. But the degree of it within Labour was grossly exaggerated and weaponised by external enemies and by internal factional opponents. Any support at all for the oppressed Palestinians, and any criticism of Israel or Zionist ideology and the way it was being interpreted was automatically assumed to be inherently anti-semitic in an attempt to shut down legitimate criticism. And the centrists eagerly went along with this and were complicit in this since it could be readily weaponised against the left, who had collectively taken up the cause of the Palestinians as they had the blacks in apartheid South Africa. In short, genuine anti-semitism in Labour was grossly exagerrated and weaponised for dubious political aims in the attempt to destroy the left. Internally in Labour itself it largely succeeded which is why the genuine left have largely given up on Labour. The left however is struggling to cohere as a unified force outside it. Some of us are pressing for the need for that. In the meantime, in my locale I will lend my support to whomever the most progressive candidates are. They tend not to be Labour. Yet those who live across the road from you represents the entire UKIP, because you say so. Many would argue that labour adopted anti-semitism for votes, and now those old supporters are playing the victim card. Even David Duke of the KKK was cheering for Corbyn. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2022 18:25:58 GMT
I have little doubt that there were and probably still are some genuine antisemites in Labour, just as there are in the Tories and others. But in my time in the party I never met a genuine anti-semite locally. Though after leaving, whilst out leafletting for TUSC (Trade Union and Socialist coalition) I did encounter a couple of lefties who muttered about Rothschild conspiracies. So I know left wing anti-semitism can exist. But the degree of it within Labour was grossly exaggerated and weaponised by external enemies and by internal factional opponents. Any support at all for the oppressed Palestinians, and any criticism of Israel or Zionist ideology and the way it was being interpreted was automatically assumed to be inherently anti-semitic in an attempt to shut down legitimate criticism. And the centrists eagerly went along with this and were complicit in this since it could be readily weaponised against the left, who had collectively taken up the cause of the Palestinians as they had the blacks in apartheid South Africa. In short, genuine anti-semitism in Labour was grossly exagerrated and weaponised for dubious political aims in the attempt to destroy the left. Internally in Labour itself it largely succeeded which is why the genuine left have largely given up on Labour. The left however is struggling to cohere as a unified force outside it. Some of us are pressing for the need for that. In the meantime, in my locale I will lend my support to whomever the most progressive candidates are. They tend not to be Labour. Yet those who live across the road from you represents the entire UKIP, because you say so. Many would argue that labour adopted anti-semitism for votes, and now those old supporters are playing the victim card. Even David Duke of the KKK was cheering for Corbyn. I was citing the man across the road as a single example of a statistical reality. And whether or not the KKK cheered Corbyn, he certainly didn't cheer them. And when you say "many would argue", you mean you would argue don't you? After all, even the weaponisers have never been able to credibly claim the nonsense that Labour was wilfully anti-semitic in pursuit of votes. Because that is just rancid bollocks of a kind to which you are prone |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 7, 2022 18:34:10 GMT
UKIP were a racist Party like Labour were an antisemitic Party... I have little doubt that there were and probably still are some genuine antisemites in Labour, just as there are in the Tories and others. But in my time in the party I never met a genuine anti-semite locally. Though after leaving, whilst out leafletting for TUSC (Trade Union and Socialist coalition) I did encounter a couple of lefties who muttered about Rothschild conspiracies. So I know left wing anti-semitism can exist. But the degree of it within Labour was grossly exaggerated and weaponised by external enemies and by internal factional opponents. Any support at all for the oppressed Palestinians, and any criticism of Israel or Zionist ideology and the way it was being interpreted was automatically assumed to be inherently anti-semitic in an attempt to shut down legitimate criticism. And the centrists eagerly went along with this and were complicit in this since it could be readily weaponised against the left, who had collectively taken up the cause of the Palestinians as they had the blacks in apartheid South Africa.
In short, genuine anti-semitism in Labour was grossly exagerrated and weaponised for dubious political aims in the attempt to destroy the left. That attitude of pretending it was not an issue is what led to it becoming an issue.. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2022 18:36:03 GMT
Yet those who live across the road from you represents the entire UKIP, because you say so. Many would argue that labour adopted anti-semitism for votes, and now those old supporters are playing the victim card. Even David Duke of the KKK was cheering for Corbyn. I was citing the man across the road as a single example of a statistical reality. And whether or not the KKK cheered Corbyn, he certainly didn't cheer them. And when you say "many would argue", you mean you would argue don't you? After all, even the weaponisers have never been able to credibly claim the nonsense that Labour was wilfully anti-semitic in pursuit of votes. Because that is just rancid bollocks of a kind to which you are prone Yes, of course, but we can see statistical reality is a meaningless phrase when it's just one observer with a grudge.
Of course he wouldn't, but it highlighted the fact that Labour were campaigning in the wrong country and pushing a racially divisive campaign in the UK, and all for votes. It was not some little minority, they had MPs basically calling for the ethnic cleansing of the region through relocation. I would imagine a lot of people who voted for the BNP gave their support for Corbyn, especially since they were obviously in support of Palestinian nationalism. They certainly wouldn't support the Friends of Israel UKIP party.
You mention this conspiracy against Labour and I have to ask, are you blaming Mossad or some other Israeli driven campaign for Corbyn's political demise in UK politics?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2022 18:42:09 GMT
I have little doubt that there were and probably still are some genuine antisemites in Labour, just as there are in the Tories and others. But in my time in the party I never met a genuine anti-semite locally. Though after leaving, whilst out leafletting for TUSC (Trade Union and Socialist coalition) I did encounter a couple of lefties who muttered about Rothschild conspiracies. So I know left wing anti-semitism can exist. But the degree of it within Labour was grossly exaggerated and weaponised by external enemies and by internal factional opponents. Any support at all for the oppressed Palestinians, and any criticism of Israel or Zionist ideology and the way it was being interpreted was automatically assumed to be inherently anti-semitic in an attempt to shut down legitimate criticism. And the centrists eagerly went along with this and were complicit in this since it could be readily weaponised against the left, who had collectively taken up the cause of the Palestinians as they had the blacks in apartheid South Africa.
In short, genuine anti-semitism in Labour was grossly exagerrated and weaponised for dubious political aims in the attempt to destroy the left. That attitude of pretending it was not an issue is what led to it becoming an issue.. I did not say it was not an issue. I said it was an issue in all parties and that as an issue in Labour the extent of it was grossly exaggerated for dubious political purposes. Legitimate criticism of Israel and support for the Palestinian have been frequently conflated with anti-semitism. It is worth pointing out that when it came to real anti-semitism in the 1930s from the fascist right, it was the left who stood shoulder to shoulder with the Jews in Cable Street, whilst the right was nowhere to be seen, except for the anti-semites themselves in their black shirts. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2022 18:46:46 GMT
I was citing the man across the road as a single example of a statistical reality. And whether or not the KKK cheered Corbyn, he certainly didn't cheer them. And when you say "many would argue", you mean you would argue don't you? After all, even the weaponisers have never been able to credibly claim the nonsense that Labour was wilfully anti-semitic in pursuit of votes. Because that is just rancid bollocks of a kind to which you are prone Yes, of course, but we can see statistical reality is a meaningless phrase when it's just one observer with a grudge.
Of course he wouldn't, but it highlighted the fact that Labour were campaigning in the wrong country and pushing a racially divisive campaign in the UK, and all for votes. It was not some little minority, they had MPs basically calling for the ethnic cleansing of the region through relocation. I would imagine a lot of people who voted for the BNP gave their support for Corbyn, especially since they were obviously in support of Palestinian nationalism. They certainly wouldn't support the Friends of Israel UKIP party.
You mention this conspiracy against Labour and I have to ask, are you blaming Mossad or some other Israeli driven campaign for Corbyn's political demise in UK politics?
If you imagine that a lot of BNP supporters voted for Labour under Corbyn, then "imagine" truly is the operative word here. BNP types hated Corbyn, but you of course are one of those with an alternate reality in your head which you regularly mistake for the real one. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2022 18:49:39 GMT
Yes, of course, but we can see statistical reality is a meaningless phrase when it's just one observer with a grudge.
Of course he wouldn't, but it highlighted the fact that Labour were campaigning in the wrong country and pushing a racially divisive campaign in the UK, and all for votes. It was not some little minority, they had MPs basically calling for the ethnic cleansing of the region through relocation. I would imagine a lot of people who voted for the BNP gave their support for Corbyn, especially since they were obviously in support of Palestinian nationalism. They certainly wouldn't support the Friends of Israel UKIP party.
You mention this conspiracy against Labour and I have to ask, are you blaming Mossad or some other Israeli driven campaign for Corbyn's political demise in UK politics?
If you imagine that a lot of BNP supporters voted for Labour under Corbyn, then "imagine" truly is the operative word here. BNP types hated Corbyn, but you of course are one of those with an alternate reality in your head which you regularly mistake for the real one. And when you have nothing but personal abuse you resort to personal abuse. What a campaigner. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2022 18:58:01 GMT
If you imagine that a lot of BNP supporters voted for Labour under Corbyn, then "imagine" truly is the operative word here. BNP types hated Corbyn, but you of course are one of those with an alternate reality in your head which you regularly mistake for the real one. And when you have nothing but personal abuse you resort to personal abuse. What a campaigner. Telling it like it is, lol |
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Post by totheleft3 on Nov 7, 2022 19:24:17 GMT
Im glad you admitted that there was some Anti semitic in corbyn labour that was allowed to have there voices heard.
But corbyn did nothing to silence them .
Thats why labour had a disastrous result in 2019
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Post by Vinny on Nov 7, 2022 21:46:25 GMT
Would you rather the BNP had carried on attracting support and had grown like the RN in France ? I think it's great that a non racist alternative appeared and killed off the BNP. In the General Election of 2010 the BNP got 564,331 votes. By 2015 they were getting less than 5 thousand votes. The BNP are a DEAD party. Don't worry, be happy. It killed it off by being a more effective racist party, without the neo-nazi baggage No, they were not a racist party. UKIP killed the BNP off by offering a NON RACIST alternative and credible criticisms of the EU. Their immigration spokesman at the time Steven Woolfe is mixed race, the son of a black American father and a Jewish mother, Timur Aker, the son of a Turkish father and an English mother. They were not racist at all. Just anti EU. And it isn't racist to be anti EU, anti Common Agricultural Policy, anti Common Fisheries Policy, anti freedom of movement, anti customs union, anti Commission... But, people like you, falsely accusing them of racism, made racists think that following UKIP's victories (in the EU elections of 2014, General Election of 2015 and referendum of 2016) that racism had become acceptable. Thing you have also forgotten, Brexit, as they always said it would, has killed them off. There is no point in UKIP anymore. They were a single issue party and they're now a spent force. So look on the bright side. Brexit has killed UKIP, UKIP killed the BNP. We haven't got a far right in Britain anymore and it's all thanks to UKIP. |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 7, 2022 21:51:08 GMT
Im glad you admitted that there was some Anti semitic in corbyn labour that was allowed to have there voices heard. But corbyn did nothing to silence them . Thats why labour had a disastrous result in 2019 No, the anti semitism shit was there in 2017 and Corbyn increased Labour's seat count by 30 seats and their vote by 3,530,645 votes. 2015 Labour got 9,347,273 votes. 2010 Labour got 8,609,527 votes. The reason for Labour's shit performance in 2019 is that they didn't learn from 2017 that for the first time in decades they'd stood on a Euroskeptic platform and gained support. The only General Election since 1997 in which Labour gained seats instead of losing them. In 2001, Labour lost seats, 2005, same, 2010 we all remember what happened, 2015 absolutely trounced. 2017 they bounced. Why's that ? Brexit. > 50 times Labour said they'd honour the referendum result. 60% of Labour seats from 2015 voted leave. So, inspite of all the bad stuff, many traditional Labour voters gave Corbyn a chance. And then he started listening to Keir Starmer, and he blew it. |
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