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Post by totheleft3 on Nov 7, 2022 22:22:09 GMT
Well vinny I can tell you has a person who campaign for labour on the doors that corbyn has leader was the concern of many.
And that was in Heywood what was one of the consistency that went offer to conservative.
While there no denying that some went over to ukip many sat on there hands and didn't vote.
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Post by sword on Nov 7, 2022 22:24:32 GMT
Well vinny I can tell you has a person who campaign for labour on the doors that corbyn has leader was the concern of many. And that was in Heywood what was one of the consistency that went offer to conservative. While there no denying that some went over to ukip many sat on there hands and didn't vote. That worked out great didn't it. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 7, 2022 22:26:54 GMT
That attitude of pretending it was not an issue is what led to it becoming an issue.. I did not say it was not an issue. I said it was an issue in all parties and that as an issue in Labour the extent of it was grossly exaggerated for dubious political purposes. Legitimate criticism of Israel and support for the Palestinian have been frequently conflated with anti-semitism. It is worth pointing out that when it came to real anti-semitism in the 1930s from the fascist right, it was the left who stood shoulder to shoulder with the Jews in Cable Street, whilst the right was nowhere to be seen, except for the anti-semites themselves in their black shirts. Well if we are into historical actions then after the Rivers of Blood speech by Enoch Powell the dock workers (and butchers) came out in support.. Your rather quaint ideas that antisemitism or racism are the preserve of the right comes crashing to earth with reality. The facts are that racism and antisemitism occur (irrespective of political stance) when they are not fought against - as we saw with the Labour Party under Corbyn. |
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Post by sword on Nov 7, 2022 22:35:45 GMT
I was citing the man across the road as a single example of a statistical reality. And whether or not the KKK cheered Corbyn, he certainly didn't cheer them. And when you say "many would argue", you mean you would argue don't you? After all, even the weaponisers have never been able to credibly claim the nonsense that Labour was wilfully anti-semitic in pursuit of votes. Because that is just rancid bollocks of a kind to which you are prone Yes, of course, but we can see statistical reality is a meaningless phrase when it's just one observer with a grudge.
Of course he wouldn't, but it highlighted the fact that Labour were campaigning in the wrong country and pushing a racially divisive campaign in the UK, and all for votes. It was not some little minority, they had MPs basically calling for the ethnic cleansing of the region through relocation. I would imagine a lot of people who voted for the BNP gave their support for Corbyn, especially since they were obviously in support of Palestinian nationalism. They certainly wouldn't support the Friends of Israel UKIP party.
You mention this conspiracy against Labour and I have to ask, are you blaming Mossad or some other Israeli driven campaign for Corbyn's political demise in UK politics?
Didn't you see the Al Jazeera exposure of the Israeli lobby in this Country,and yes the Israelis DID have something to do with taking Corbyn down,along with the whole establishment,scum inside the labour party included,and they are still in the labour party,many left wing jews have been thrown out of the labour party,the whole antisemite smear was just that a smear,they were terrified of Corbyn because he would have ended the status quo its that simple,all at the same time we had a racist liar as prime minister. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2022 7:22:43 GMT
It killed it off by being a more effective racist party, without the neo-nazi baggage No, they were not a racist party. UKIP killed the BNP off by offering a NON RACIST alternative and credible criticisms of the EU. Their immigration spokesman at the time Steven Woolfe is mixed race, the son of a black American father and a Jewish mother, Timur Aker, the son of a Turkish father and an English mother. They were not racist at all. Just anti EU. And it isn't racist to be anti EU, anti Common Agricultural Policy, anti Common Fisheries Policy, anti freedom of movement, anti customs union, anti Commission... But, people like you, falsely accusing them of racism, made racists think that following UKIP's victories (in the EU elections of 2014, General Election of 2015 and referendum of 2016) that racism had become acceptable. Thing you have also forgotten, Brexit, as they always said it would, has killed them off. There is no point in UKIP anymore. They were a single issue party and they're now a spent force. So look on the bright side. Brexit has killed UKIP, UKIP killed the BNP. We haven't got a far right in Britain anymore and it's all thanks to UKIP. UKIP always was the acceptable - and therefore more successful - face of racism, which is why the BNP vote went there. UKIP in it's earlier days were getting nowhere with their anti-EU, pro-sovereignty arguments. It was only when they latched onto immigration as an issue and attracted the racist vote did they start gaining serious support. And that racist vote has not been destroyed by UKIP. It is still out there. Who else do you think the likes of Priti Patel and Suella Braverman have been appealing to? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2022 7:32:57 GMT
I did not say it was not an issue. I said it was an issue in all parties and that as an issue in Labour the extent of it was grossly exaggerated for dubious political purposes. Legitimate criticism of Israel and support for the Palestinian have been frequently conflated with anti-semitism. It is worth pointing out that when it came to real anti-semitism in the 1930s from the fascist right, it was the left who stood shoulder to shoulder with the Jews in Cable Street, whilst the right was nowhere to be seen, except for the anti-semites themselves in their black shirts. Well if we are into historical actions then after the Rivers of Blood speech by Enoch Powell the dock workers (and butchers) came out in support.. Your rather quaint ideas that antisemitism or racism are the preserve of the right comes crashing to earth with reality. The facts are that racism and antisemitism occur (irrespective of political stance) when they are not fought against - as we saw with the Labour Party under Corbyn. I never said that antisemitism was the preserve of the right. What I said was that the extent of it on the left was grossly exaggerated, partly by equating any legitimate criticism of Israel with it, for dubious political purposes. But most of us on the left abhor racism of any kind, including antisemitism. It is in our political DNA. But also in our political DNA is support for oppressed people everywhere, and that includes the Palestinians, which inevitably involves criticism of Israel as an oppressor state. This latter is what has wilfully been conflated with antisemitism to falsely brand the entire left with the label of antisemitism. This was a politically motivated conflation. |
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Post by sheepy on Nov 8, 2022 7:40:17 GMT
Yes, of course, but we can see statistical reality is a meaningless phrase when it's just one observer with a grudge.
Of course he wouldn't, but it highlighted the fact that Labour were campaigning in the wrong country and pushing a racially divisive campaign in the UK, and all for votes. It was not some little minority, they had MPs basically calling for the ethnic cleansing of the region through relocation. I would imagine a lot of people who voted for the BNP gave their support for Corbyn, especially since they were obviously in support of Palestinian nationalism. They certainly wouldn't support the Friends of Israel UKIP party.
You mention this conspiracy against Labour and I have to ask, are you blaming Mossad or some other Israeli driven campaign for Corbyn's political demise in UK politics?
Didn't you see the Al Jazeera exposure of the Israeli lobby in this Country,and yes the Israelis DID have something to do with taking Corbyn down,along with the whole establishment,scum inside the labour party included,and they are still in the labour party,many left wing jews have been thrown out of the labour party,the whole antisemite smear was just that a smear,they were terrified of Corbyn because he would have ended the status quo its that simple,all at the same time we had a racist liar as prime minister. The lefts obsession with Racism is unquenchable, which BLM took full advantage of, while a White fella who lost the plot is just a racist, a Brown fella who lost the plot and blew up kids at a concert is misunderstood. I have even heard it said a freedom fighter a backlash against Blair, who incidentally was a Labour PM who now gets the blame for being a Thatcherite. Very convenient I am sure. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 8, 2022 8:28:04 GMT
Well if we are into historical actions then after the Rivers of Blood speech by Enoch Powell the dock workers (and butchers) came out in support.. Your rather quaint ideas that antisemitism or racism are the preserve of the right comes crashing to earth with reality. The facts are that racism and antisemitism occur (irrespective of political stance) when they are not fought against - as we saw with the Labour Party under Corbyn. I never said that antisemitism was the preserve of the right. What I said was that the extent of it on the left was grossly exaggerated, partly by equating any legitimate criticism of Israel with it, for dubious political purposes. But most of us on the left abhor racism of any kind, including antisemitism. It is in our political DNA. But also in our political DNA is support for oppressed people everywhere, and that includes the Palestinians, which inevitably involves criticism of Israel as an oppressor state. This latter is what has wilfully been conflated with antisemitism to falsely brand the entire left with the label of antisemitism. This was a politically motivated conflation. Did you actually read the report into antisemitism in the Labour Party? - because all you seem to want to do is repeat the same rubbish excuses that Corbyn supporters have been making for years. |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 8, 2022 8:38:37 GMT
There's nothing racist about arguing for points based immigration instead of free movement.
Anyone irrespective of ethnicity is judged by who they are and what they can do rather than which white European Union member country they come from.
It's the Europhiles who are the racists.
Arguing for a system of immigration based on ethnicity rather capabilities, that's racist.
The United Kingdom Independence Party argued against ethnicity based migration rules.
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Post by totheleft3 on Nov 8, 2022 10:36:58 GMT
Therepeople'oing racist about arguing for points based immigration instead of free movement. Anyone irrespective of ethnicity is judged by who they are and what they can do rather than which white Europeacontrol member country they come from. It's the Europhiles who are the racists. Arguing for a system of immigration based on ethnicity rather capabilities, that's racist. The United Kingdom Independence Party argued against ethnicity based migration rules. Yea vinny I supposed that was at the forfront of peoples mind when they voted leave and stop FOM not i tell you what was the main driver why people who voted leave was that we control our boarders what Would Include worldwide immigrants. it shown the we control our boarders to be another lie by the leave campaign weve increased in immigraton since 2016 |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 8, 2022 10:48:33 GMT
Having to allow unlimited numbers of white Europeans to live and seek work here, doesn't constitute border control Leftie, no matter how you try and spin it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2022 11:17:03 GMT
I never said that antisemitism was the preserve of the right. What I said was that the extent of it on the left was grossly exaggerated, partly by equating any legitimate criticism of Israel with it, for dubious political purposes. But most of us on the left abhor racism of any kind, including antisemitism. It is in our political DNA. But also in our political DNA is support for oppressed people everywhere, and that includes the Palestinians, which inevitably involves criticism of Israel as an oppressor state. This latter is what has wilfully been conflated with antisemitism to falsely brand the entire left with the label of antisemitism. This was a politically motivated conflation. Did you actually read the report into antisemitism in the Labour Party? - because all you seem to want to do is repeat the same rubbish excuses that Corbyn supporters have been making for years. I have read it in the past yes. And the idea that antisemitism permeates the entire left was accepted - wrongly - at face value, with much legitimate criticism of Israel and/or zionism and support for the Palestinians wrongly assumed to be themselves evidence of antisemitism. I have never said that antisemitism doesn't exist on the left, merely stated the obvious truth that the extent of it has been exaggerated and weaponised. I never met a true antisemite in my local party but I did know of at least two local left wingers who were falsely accused of it, both two of the most prominent local left wingers who ran for office whom the centrists wanted to stop at any cost. A tacit and unspoken deal with the devil has been done. Labour centrists have kowtowed to Israel by equating support for the Palestinians and criticism of Israel with antisemitism, purely because this can then be weaponised against the left. The oppressed Palestinians have been thrown under a bus by the party in order to do this. I repeat, that antisemitism existed in the party I have no doubt. It exists in others too though nothing is ever said about that. But that the extent of it was exaggerated and weaponised is undeniable to anyone looking at it neutrally with an open mind. You branding a biased report at me notwithstanding. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2022 11:24:03 GMT
There's nothing racist about arguing for points based immigration instead of free movement. Anyone irrespective of ethnicity is judged by who they are and what they can do rather than which white European Union member country they come from. It's the Europhiles who are the racists. Arguing for a system of immigration based on ethnicity rather capabilities, that's racist. The United Kingdom Independence Party argued against ethnicity based migration rules. That is bullshit frankly. The UKIP message was always liberally sprinkled with dog whistles as well as racist tropes like migrants being diseased, uttered by Farage himself. And the notion that Europhiles wanted immigration based on ethnicity is a blatant lie. They wanted freedom of movement in a common geographic area, with common EU nationality being the deciding factor, not ethnicity. Turks with German nationality in Germany were as free to come here as white Germans, whilst our own black and brown Britons were as free to go there as white ones. |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 8, 2022 11:30:40 GMT
There's nothing racist about arguing for points based immigration instead of free movement. Anyone irrespective of ethnicity is judged by who they are and what they can do rather than which white European Union member country they come from. It's the Europhiles who are the racists. Arguing for a system of immigration based on ethnicity rather capabilities, that's racist. The United Kingdom Independence Party argued against ethnicity based migration rules. That is bullshit frankly. The UKIP message was always liberally sprinkled with dog whistles as well as racist tropes like migrants being diseased, uttered by Farage himself. And the notion that Europhiles wanted immigration based on ethnicity is a blatant lie. They wanted freedom of movement in a common geographic area, with common EU nationality being the deciding factor, not ethnicity. Turks with German nationality in Germany were as free to come here as white Germans, whilst our own black and brown Britons were as free to go there as white ones. Incorrect. The UK Independence Party message was always about independence, self determination. The reality is that Europe is mostly white. Therefore by definition, EU get immigration by ethnicity, not capability. EU get free movement for unlimited numbers of white Europeans with an EU passport. In the EU immigration system, skills are not the consideration, the passport is. UK Independence Party argued that the CV not the ethnicity is the important factor. They argued for the Australian points system. www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-31724979They also argued for Syrian refugees to be allowed into the UK as they are not economic migrants. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25539843Racism my arse. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 8, 2022 11:35:12 GMT
UKIP always was the acceptable - and therefore more successful - face of racism, which is why the BNP vote went there. UKIP in it's earlier days were getting nowhere with their anti-EU, pro-sovereignty arguments. It was only when they latched onto immigration as an issue and attracted the racist vote did they start gaining serious support. And that racist vote has not been destroyed by UKIP. It is still out there. Who else do you think the likes of Priti Patel and Suella Braverman have been appealing to? Bullshit. Concern over immigration is not racist and it is disingenuous to deliberately conflate the two. Patel and Braverman are well aware that it's a serious public concern that can't simply be brushed aside as “Racism”. Hell, even Starmer has now recognised that concern and that attempts to brush it aside is electoral suicide. You need to wake up and smell the coffee: Shouting “Racist” at everyone you disagree with is not going to cut the mustard. |
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