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Post by Orac on Jul 24, 2023 8:17:07 GMT
I know what you are saying wapentake , but the argument only 8% of the uk is urbanised is a false and misleading argument. Im a member of a weather forum , and i mind reading( will try find the link) that on a global scale , humanity needs a large amount of the earth non urbanised to be able to live , for water food etc.
There was actually a scientific formula to calculate this. So while only 8 % of the uk is urbanised , another few ways of looking at it would be for example England makes up 40 % of the land of these islands , but has nearly 80 % of the popualtion. England could fit inside france 5 times over , but has a popualtion similar.
On top of that , there is more water in loch ness than in the whole of England and wales combined.
The uk hasnt been able to grow enough food to feed itself for hundreds of years.
So its not just a problem of lack of building more reservoirs , and the nimbyism in your back yards , but england does have an overpopualtion problem with no government willing to tackle it. The estimated popualtion what england should have is around 20 million , but instead is around 55 million.
The westmisnter government cant keep growing the uk/english popualtion indefinetly without the resources and infrastructure to manage it. We saw that problem during the new labour and blair years , where new labour were correct that mass migration and the taxes they paid supported labours treasurey , but on the flip side with a lack of major investment in things like reservoirs , school places , roads etc , we all saw the problem the millions of people coming here caused.
Even so Thomas taking England on its own only10.6% is urbanised,we could be near self sufficient in food if they tried and not covering it with solar panels or paid not to use it. To Pacifico I’m not advocating increasing the population but we do have the water resources if we care to utilise it. The unbanisation figure is not indicative - a sensible and comfortable limit may well be 5% |
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Post by thomas on Jul 24, 2023 8:25:59 GMT
I know what you are saying wapentake , but the argument only 8% of the uk is urbanised is a false and misleading argument. Im a member of a weather forum , and i mind reading( will try find the link) that on a global scale , humanity needs a large amount of the earth non urbanised to be able to live , for water food etc.
There was actually a scientific formula to calculate this. So while only 8 % of the uk is urbanised , another few ways of looking at it would be for example England makes up 40 % of the land of these islands , but has nearly 80 % of the popualtion. England could fit inside france 5 times over , but has a popualtion similar.
On top of that , there is more water in loch ness than in the whole of England and wales combined.
The uk hasnt been able to grow enough food to feed itself for hundreds of years.
So its not just a problem of lack of building more reservoirs , and the nimbyism in your back yards , but england does have an overpopualtion problem with no government willing to tackle it. The estimated popualtion what england should have is around 20 million , but instead is around 55 million.
The westmisnter government cant keep growing the uk/english popualtion indefinetly without the resources and infrastructure to manage it. We saw that problem during the new labour and blair years , where new labour were correct that mass migration and the taxes they paid supported labours treasurey , but on the flip side with a lack of major investment in things like reservoirs , school places , roads etc , we all saw the problem the millions of people coming here caused.
Even so Thomas taking England on its own only10.6% is urbanised,we could be near self sufficient in food if they tried and not covering it with solar panels or paid not to use it. To Pacifico I’m not advocating increasing the population but we do have the water resources if we care to utilise it. England hasnt been self sufficient in food in centuries and never could be wapentake unless you had a massive and drastic decrease in popualtion.Scotlands problem is 80 % of scotland is non arable land. Its a vastly complex siutaion that varies from country ot country rather than simply talking about what percentage in urbanised.
i dont agree fully. While you could manage your water resources ( privatised water has been a disaster in my opinion) far better , and build more reservoirs , you have to accept you have a large problem with overpopualtion compared to water supplies , hence why you rely on welsh water for example , or that the parsely underpopualted northern england has the supplies and climate that the overpopualted south lacks.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2023 8:35:14 GMT
Well said. I recall mentioning BASF a while back. I get my news in advance of the BBC from the China end! Oh ffs will you stop carping on about bloody China. Quite. Does no one look at the thread title before posting? |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 24, 2023 8:43:19 GMT
It is the second largest economy in the world. I also talk about the US a lot which is the first. I'm starting to learn about what goes on in Japan and Korea as well. I'll let you know if i find anything out. Europe is fucked so what is there to say. Learn from those who do it right. You think 1.3 million (As at 2021) Uygers in internment camps is OK? You think China's social credit system is OK? You think 1.5 billion people denied democracy is OK? You think 200 million living in poverty (c13% of the population) is OK? You think forcibly relocating 1.3 million people to make way for a dam is OK? etc etc, BvL, you really need to wise up on China. He knows about all this, he just doesn't bloody care. |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 24, 2023 8:55:02 GMT
There is talk of the only way the Tories can win is if they abandon net zero. As this has been their manifesto policy in 2019 and they have been pushing it for 4 years, how on earth are they going to dump it? Are they saying the majority of people will support a non net zero party? Because currently there is not one amongst the major players. Not intended for discussing climate change, but policies. I don't think Sunak has ever been sold on net zero, I get the impression he's gone along with it because he is expected to, it's the new religion. But who knows, things might change. I think the Tories one glimmer of hope in next years election may be to back peddle on things like banning petrol/diesel vehicles by 2030 - forcing people to accept Ulez - making people poorer with all this net zero by 2050 nonsense. Yes a minority of outraged lefties will glue themselves to roads and make a nuisance of themselves but the governments first concern should be the economy and nothing will damage the economy more than net zero and the irony is, forcing us into net zero poverty wont make a scrap of difference on a global level. What governments around the world should be doing is putting pressure on Brazil and other rainforest countries to replant the forests, or face global sanctions and also issue sanctions against the highest polluters, like China. |
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Post by wapentake on Jul 24, 2023 9:07:57 GMT
Even so Thomas taking England on its own only10.6% is urbanised,we could be near self sufficient in food if they tried and not covering it with solar panels or paid not to use it. To Pacifico I’m not advocating increasing the population but we do have the water resources if we care to utilise it. England hasnt been self sufficient in food in centuries and never could be wapentake unless you had a massive and drastic decrease in popualtion.Scotlands problem is 80 % of scotland is non arable land. Its a vastly complex siutaion that varies from country ot country rather than simply talking about what percentage in urbanised.
i dont agree fully. While you could manage your water resources ( privatised water has been a disaster in my opinion) far better , and build more reservoirs , you have to accept you have a large problem with overpopualtion compared to water supplies , hence why you rely on welsh water for example , or that the parsely underpopualted northern england has the supplies and climate that the overpopualted south lacks.
Two interesting pieces one a few years old but do dispute that www.thegrocer.co.uk/sourcing/how-can-the-uk-be-more-self-sufficient-in-food/653103.articlewww.thelandmagazine.org.uk/articles/can-britain-feed-itself |
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Post by thomas on Jul 24, 2023 9:50:21 GMT
England hasnt been self sufficient in food in centuries and never could be wapentake unless you had a massive and drastic decrease in popualtion.Scotlands problem is 80 % of scotland is non arable land. Its a vastly complex siutaion that varies from country ot country rather than simply talking about what percentage in urbanised.
i dont agree fully. While you could manage your water resources ( privatised water has been a disaster in my opinion) far better , and build more reservoirs , you have to accept you have a large problem with overpopualtion compared to water supplies , hence why you rely on welsh water for example , or that the parsely underpopualted northern england has the supplies and climate that the overpopualted south lacks.
Two interesting pieces one a few years old but do dispute that www.thegrocer.co.uk/sourcing/how-can-the-uk-be-more-self-sufficient-in-food/653103.articlewww.thelandmagazine.org.uk/articles/can-britain-feed-itselfgood articles, but one sentence stood out to me. Food security being at the heart of any government policy.
You would think so , but for forty years , food security , like energy security and much else has been tossed out the window to worship on the altar of neo liberalism and globalisation.
So not only does overpopulation , lack of land etc come into it as i said , but policy wise , no major party is pushing for self sufficiency.
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Post by wapentake on Jul 24, 2023 9:53:33 GMT
good articles, but one sentence stood out to me. Food security being at the heart of any government policy.
You would think so , but for forty years , food security , like energy security and much else has been tossed out the window to worship on the altar of neo liberalism and globalisation.
So not only does overpopulation , lack of land etc come into it as i said , but policy wise , no major party is pushing for self sufficiency.
Wouldn’t disagree at all we have been blighted by short termism and govts that have been clones of each other. Theyve neglected food and energy security for decades. |
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Post by thomas on Jul 24, 2023 9:54:01 GMT
I don't think Sunak has ever been sold on net zero, I get the impression he's gone along with it because he is expected to, it's the new religion. But who knows, things might change. I think the Tories one glimmer of hope in next years election may be to back peddle on things like banning petrol/diesel vehicles by 2030 - forcing people to accept Ulez - making people poorer with all this net zero by 2050 nonsense. Yes a minority of outraged lefties will glue themselves to roads and make a nuisance of themselves but the governments first concern should be the economy and nothing will damage the economy more than net zero and the irony is, forcing us into net zero poverty wont make a scrap of difference on a global level. What governments around the world should be doing is putting pressure on Brazil and other rainforest countries to replant the forests, or face global sanctions and also issue sanctions against the highest polluters, like China. sanctions as everyone know do not and never have worked.
on top of that , as you can see with russia at this very minute , global sanctions and world condemnation really just boils down to the wst , while the global south and east carry on regardless of what the west says.
There is no world wide consensus on most topics , and where the world does reach some measure of consensus , national and regional interests always take precedence.
Good luck arguing with brazil they have to plant more trees to save the west.
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Post by Orac on Jul 24, 2023 9:56:09 GMT
good articles, but one sentence stood out to me. Food security being at the heart of any government policy.
You would think so , but for forty years , food security , like energy security and much else has been tossed out the window to worship on the altar of neo liberalism and globalisation.
So not only does overpopulation , lack of land etc come into it as i said , but policy wise , no major party is pushing for self sufficiency. If say the UK ever got into a situation were the population (in aggregate) was more or less self sufficient - ie supplying between themselves most of what they really needed - three quarters of the political / bureaucratic class could be sacked and offered a job working in the fields. |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 24, 2023 9:56:14 GMT
good articles, but one sentence stood out to me. Food security being at the heart of any government policy.
You would think so , but for forty years , food security , like energy security and much else has been tossed out the window to worship on the altar of neo liberalism and globalisation.
So not only does overpopulation , lack of land etc come into it as i said , but policy wise , no major party is pushing for self sufficiency.
Wouldn’t disagree at all we have been blighted by short termism and govts that have been clones of each other. Theyve neglected food and energy security for decades. And allowed demographic population explosion. |
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Post by thomas on Jul 24, 2023 9:56:26 GMT
good articles, but one sentence stood out to me. Food security being at the heart of any government policy.
You would think so , but for forty years , food security , like energy security and much else has been tossed out the window to worship on the altar of neo liberalism and globalisation.
So not only does overpopulation , lack of land etc come into it as i said , but policy wise , no major party is pushing for self sufficiency.
Wouldn’t disagree at all we have been blighted by short termism and govts that have been clones of each other. Theyve neglected food and energy security for decades. Energy security , especially in england with westmisnter , is a clear example of how politicians never think long term , but merely short term as long as their noses.
How many years have we saw westmisnter politicians flip flop on things like nuclear power , renewable etc etc?
totally agree with your post.
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Post by thomas on Jul 24, 2023 9:59:36 GMT
Wouldn’t disagree at all we have been blighted by short termism and govts that have been clones of each other. Theyve neglected food and energy security for decades. And allowed demographic population explosion. its not a question of allow vinny. Its a question of need in terms of governments policy of needing an ever growing workforce coming online to pay for the ever growing elderly retiring.
Eventually this ponzi scheme is going to run out of babies and migrants.
Short termists in government dont care , its a can that is constantly kicked down the road across the west and a problem for future governments to grapple with. Hence , the continued mass migration under both labour and tory governments....
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Post by Orac on Jul 24, 2023 10:13:17 GMT
And allowed demographic population explosion. its not a question of allow vinny. Its a question of need in terms of governments policy of needing an ever growing workforce coming online to pay for the ever growing elderly retiring.
Eventually this ponzi scheme is going to run out of babies and migrants.
Short termists in government dont care , its a can that is constantly kicked down the road across the west and a problem for future governments to grapple with. Hence , the continued mass migration under both labour and tory governments....
I heard an interesting take - the current notion of a pension emerged in the twentieth century, in a period of extreme technological growth (30s, 40s,50s,60s). However, our societies have, in real terms, performed pretty poorly since the seventies. The growth stopped and slowed and the old notion of a pension isn't affordable without creating a gigantic population based Ponzi scheme. We went from supporting ourselves with innovation to supporting ourselves with an unsustainable population based accounting trick. I think once you realise you are in a cul de sac or hole, you should stop driving or digging. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 24, 2023 14:01:19 GMT
I don't think Sunak has ever been sold on net zero, I get the impression he's gone along with it because he is expected to, it's the new religion. But who knows, things might change. I think the Tories one glimmer of hope in next years election may be to back peddle on things like banning petrol/diesel vehicles by 2030 - forcing people to accept Ulez - making people poorer with all this net zero by 2050 nonsense. Yes a minority of outraged lefties will glue themselves to roads and make a nuisance of themselves but the governments first concern should be the economy and nothing will damage the economy more than net zero and the irony is, forcing us into net zero poverty wont make a scrap of difference on a global level. What governments around the world should be doing is putting pressure on Brazil and other rainforest countries to replant the forests, or face global sanctions and also issue sanctions against the highest polluters, like China. Lies damned lies and stats eh?
Recalibrate your view with pollution per capita.
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